At what point do you call a spade a spade?

[sandbeige911]

OK, so where to start? I would like this thread to stir some constructive comments, criticism and opinions on not only your hobby in vintage Porsche's, but any other vehicles that any one of you enjoy restoring as well. Whether they are in two wheel form, four, or even things that fly (you think Porsche's are expensive and hard to find parts for, go talk to the guys that fly Unlimited Class airplanes at the Reno Air Show). I have a passion for all three; shall we call them hobbies? Champagne taste and Budweiser pocket book as my father always told me however. Old tail dragger planes & warbirds, vintage American, English, German, Japanese bikes, and of course mostly German sports cars but also a weakness for old 30's American trucks as well. So, at what point do you consider a vintage Porsche like “005” for example (and I don't want to focus on that car but it is on everyone's mind still with the recent thread close) a lost cause, or still worth saving? Any example of one of your experiences or opinion is welcome.

So it's an early Porsche....... again this is an "example." At what point do you spend countless man hours, resourcing parts, looking for cannibalized parts, trying to find original motor, take it back to the way it "may" have come off the assembly line, or possible early “race heritage”, or do you create your interpretation of what you always wanted that particular vehicle to look like since most everything is gone, been replaced, or missing? Using your interpretation, taste, trying to be respectful to period correctness, workmanship, color, interior, etc. or not? For example, I totally appreciate ANYONE, taking something that was ready for the junkyard, to something like I did with the old Triumph pictured here in thread. I don’t think anyone will disagree that thing was done. But, it wasn’t dead yet. I knew enough was gone, that to take original parts from other bikes, fab new parts for what I couldn’t find, would still make for a cool bike and a big challenge, but at what point does one throw in the towel and just move on with a nice classy build and not pretend that 90% of what you added is now an original spec car or bike and go for a stock look and call it original?

I guess that is what is still bothering me with “005” in my example. That poor car has been so bastardized, who knows what is original on that thing anymore? Some may find portions and pieces, but does it really even close to the same original car, or race car, or anything that even resembles its true bones? It’s been registered different years, front clips that look replaced, forged maybe, whatever, not as it originally was built (again example, not saying that is 100% the case). I never pretended to try and pass one of my builds off as something it is not, once it is past the point of no return in my mind. I feel 005 is currently at where my Triumph motorcycle was at (forget the providence possibility). I feel like bringing vehicles back to life using all kind of other cars parts and sourcing and pretending like it is the same car that came off the Porsche factory line or whatever would almost be considered a crime, who are we kidding once it is 90% other vehicles or parts? That’s just my opinion. Call a spade a spade. There is a market for that still I guess, but instead of commanding super high prices just because a VIN is old, it should not be looked upon like finding King Soloman’s tomb, all intact and everything there, when in fact most of it was pillaged long ago.

I recently found a rare BMW as some of you know, I’m restoring it as best I can to keep what was/is original, and do as good a job as I can keeping it classy and period correct. But I wouldn't want to not share pictures of the build, have it not be seen in public, or keep it shrouded in mystery just because I think I found the Holy Grail. Again, that is just me. I was very surprised at most people’s reactions on here when the 005 thread came out. It was like Christy Turlington’s transvestite look alike showed up to a dinner party of yours; you knew something was off, but was too enamored to say anything about it. Didn't question the adam’s apple, large hands, or cleft chin….. anyhow, where do you draw the line of taking the time to restore a beautiful older vintage car that has say 90% of everything there, but just needs refurbishing…… to something that is missing 90% of its original self, restoring it and still being able to call it original?

Which by the way, see recent thread: http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...cent-Scam-Info

And to my earlier point in the other thread….be careful what is out there, there are a lot of smoke and mirror cars in this hobby for sale and/or just simply out there. And that is why I believe it never hurts to ask pertinent questions about what you see and read online; because until you see it in person and inspect it yourself, with or w/out experts, have PPI’s done at local respectable shops…it is sometimes really hard to tell what is going on. Especially us new to the vintage Porsche world. I had my own experiences good and bad and I like to pass on the skepticism to others new to this hobby that frequent this site looking to buy a vintage Porsches. I get PM’s from people asking my real opinion about getting into this world after reading my stories and I tell them the truth…Mainly…be careful and have a deep pocketbook. Ones questions and concerns should not be chastised if good intent is there. And if it is, you better be able to take the criticism back without being deleted or censored. We are all adults here and I personally think there is way too much editing going on (not so much for myself but others too). Keep it real…….Interested to hear any comments and I promise not to close this thread due to differing taste or opinions, that is what makes the world go round.

[John Straub]

Interesting...I personally know of very early cars that were re-bodied, some as whole cars, some as parts and pieces. Cars that had the door numbers cut out and replaced in un-rusted other doors. It's kinda' come to a sad state. A lot of us started out doing whatever we wanted to our cars and drove them. Now it seems, if it is not perfect the way it left the factory, it's considered not as good. The thing that bothers me, is when people stop sharing on this board...

BTW...I like your bike just the way it is! It's badass!

John

[Frank Beck]

What I learned in this thread so far is that a woman with a cleft chin and huge hands probably stands when she pees and we shouldn't use sheet metal when we restore cars. I agree with one of those anyway.

Baskin Robbins sells 31 flavors for a reason. Everyone has their own definition when it comes to originality, authenticity, and what the difference is between a historically accepted restoration and stem cell restoration. As a purveyor of all things Porsche I let my paying customers decide their own definitions.

As for "keeping it real", HA!

That, my young, naive friend is simply not allowed. As one who is consistently on the leader board for deletions, censores, smack-downs, and offending folks all I can say is that you need to have thick skin and know that when you try to poop in someone else's sandbox they have the right to throw you out. (Personally I would much rather them sling the feces back at me with the accuracy of an Over-The-Line pitcher.)

Maybe ratchet it back a bit on the tone of your accusations? It's one thing to ask critical questions; it's quite another to attack someone without PLENTY of evidence. Charity and grace with a dash of bombastic language is my rule. And be ready to offer a REAL apology if necessary.

AND

in all fairness, comparing one of the most significant archeological Porsche finds in some time to a Bavaria is probably not fair. (And I'm a BMW fan!)
COMPLETELY different rules apply because of the significance and the huge dollar value.

[LongRanger]

Another thread . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...nal-Discussion

[LongRanger]

And another . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-Car-Real-quot

[Bob Harriman]

Hope we sit down and have a beer someday Frank. I'm sure everyone wonders what others look like in comparison to their demeanor in text on our forum. Yours is a difficult one.

[mfitton]

OK, so where to start? I would like this thread to stir some constructive comments, criticism and opinions on not only your hobby in vintage Porsche's, but any other vehicles that any one of you enjoy restoring as well. Whether they are in two wheel form, four, or even things that fly (you think Porsche's are expensive and hard to find parts for, go talk to the guys that fly Unlimited Class airplanes at the Reno Air Show). I have a passion for all three; shall we call them hobbies? Champagne taste and Budweiser pocket book as my father always told me however. Old tail dragger planes & warbirds, vintage American, English, German, Japanese bikes, and of course mostly German sports cars but also a weakness for old 30's American trucks as well. So, at what point do you consider a vintage Porsche like “005” for example (and I don't want to focus on that car but it is on everyone's mind still with the recent thread close) a lost cause, or still worth saving? Any example of one of your experiences or opinion is welcome.

So it's an early Porsche....... again this is an "example." At what point do you spend countless man hours, resourcing parts, looking for cannibalized parts, trying to find original motor, take it back to the way it "may" have come off the assembly line, or possible early “race heritage”, or do you create your interpretation of what you always wanted that particular vehicle to look like since most everything is gone, been replaced, or missing? Using your interpretation, taste, trying to be respectful to period correctness, workmanship, color, interior, etc. or not? For example, I totally appreciate ANYONE, taking something that was ready for the junkyard, to something like I did with the old Triumph pictured here in thread. I don’t think anyone will disagree that thing was done. But, it wasn’t dead yet. I knew enough was gone, that to take original parts from other bikes, fab new parts for what I couldn’t find, would still make for a cool bike and a big challenge, but at what point does one throw in the towel and just move on with a nice classy build and not pretend that 90% of what you added is now an original spec car or bike and go for a stock look and call it original?

I guess that is what is still bothering me with “005” in my example. That poor car has been so bastardized, who knows what is original on that thing anymore? Some may find portions and pieces, but does it really even close to the same original car, or race car, or anything that even resembles its true bones? It’s been registered different years, front clips that look replaced, forged maybe, whatever, not as it originally was built (again example, not saying that is 100% the case). I never pretended to try and pass one of my builds off as something it is not, once it is past the point of no return in my mind. I feel 005 is currently at where my Triumph motorcycle was at (forget the providence possibility). I feel like bringing vehicles back to life using all kind of other cars parts and sourcing and pretending like it is the same car that came off the Porsche factory line or whatever would almost be considered a crime, who are we kidding once it is 90% other vehicles or parts? That’s just my opinion. Call a spade a spade. There is a market for that still I guess, but instead of commanding super high prices just because a VIN is old, it should not be looked upon like finding King Soloman’s tomb, all intact and everything there, when in fact most of it was pillaged long ago.

I recently found a rare BMW as some of you know, I’m restoring it as best I can to keep what was/is original, and do as good a job as I can keeping it classy and period correct. But I wouldn't want to not share pictures of the build, have it not be seen in public, or keep it shrouded in mystery just because I think I found the Holy Grail. Again, that is just me. I was very surprised at most people’s reactions on here when the 005 thread came out. It was like Christy Turlington’s transvestite look alike showed up to a dinner party of yours; you knew something was off, but was too enamored to say anything about it. Didn't question the adam’s apple, large hands, or cleft chin….. anyhow, where do you draw the line of taking the time to restore a beautiful older vintage car that has say 90% of everything there, but just needs refurbishing…… to something that is missing 90% of its original self, restoring it and still being able to call it original?

Which by the way, see recent thread: http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...cent-Scam-Info

And to my earlier point in the other thread….be careful what is out there, there are a lot of smoke and mirror cars in this hobby for sale and/or just simply out there. And that is why I believe it never hurts to ask pertinent questions about what you see and read online; because until you see it in person and inspect it yourself, with or w/out experts, have PPI’s done at local respectable shops…it is sometimes really hard to tell what is going on. Especially us new to the vintage Porsche world. I had my own experiences good and bad and I like to pass on the skepticism to others new to this hobby that frequent this site looking to buy a vintage Porsches. I get PM’s from people asking my real opinion about getting into this world after reading my stories and I tell them the truth…Mainly…be careful and have a deep pocketbook. Ones questions and concerns should not be chastised if good intent is there. And if it is, you better be able to take the criticism back without being deleted or censored. We are all adults here and I personally think there is way too much editing going on (not so much for myself but others too). Keep it real…….Interested to hear any comments and I promise not to close this thread due to differing taste or opinions, that is what makes the world go round.

You are obviously frustrated that the thread on 005 has been closed. Why don't you just copy all of your "negative" posts from that thread and post them here so we can comment on them one by one?

[sebastianroher]

I honestly don't know what to think of the 005 thread.. It raised many red flags from the start but has supposedly been verified by members on here to be legit. I personally don't understand the secrecy. I mean, if you blatantly posted sensitive information on here i.e. your address, etc. that possibly might raise concern for theft of the car. But to answer questions or put up a few pics what's the big deal? I would have thought they would have been more than happy to share about their car. I think sometimes people take things way too seriously and it can be quite annoying. Just my .02

[CamBiscuit]

It is rapidly becoming apparent that you have an axe to grind here, not sure if its the car (005) or the owner but it really doesn't matter. You want to call it a spade without having inspected the car yourself do you not?

Cars can be restored around a VIN. Alan at Canford Classics has proven this. At the end of the well documented resto there was a buyer at a good price. They bought the car knowing what they were buying. Not your cup of tea clearly but it was someones.

You've been bashing 005 merrily whilst the owner has been trying to work out what is what with the car. Is there a restoration under way already?? No

Why can't you just let the process unfold without unleashing your vitriol based around what you think may or not happen? Given the apparent significance of the car I highly doubt there will be a smoke and mirror resto done. I think any restoration would be very well documented using period correct parts. Where these parts are not available they might be aftermarket or custom made. What the hell else do you do, say oh well we can't find a NOS part so we are just throwing our hands in the air and giving up? Hardly. The market accepts this.

In any event there will most certainly be a buyer for the car whenever the owner is ready to sell and I have no doubt they will do their homework.

If people like you continue to conduct yourselves in the way you have on that thread, then the next person who finds the next significant car will be a whole lot less likely to share their find on this site in the future in my very humble opinion. And that affects all of us here on this board.

[mohrgan]

This thread appears to be just another opportunity to call the owner of '005' a "tool". Sandbeige just cannot let it rest. I think Jay is very smart in not posting a gazillion pics because people like Sandbeige will just pick everything apart without knowing the entire story...of which no one knows the entire story. Some folks have no tolerance for gray and only see the world and everything in it as black and white. They are usually young and naive.