73 seat belt mountings

[DarthMJH]

Whilst taking out a front seat in my RoW 73 911 I noticed seat belt mount threads in the tunnel and in the inner seal. When were these used, as I thought only the seat belt mounts on the seats were used?

Cheers

Mike

[Chuck Miller]

Mike,

Not sure what the 'inner seal' is, but as far as I know your later supposition is correct.... only on the front seat frames

[422flat6]

The receivers and one end of the 3-point belt bolt to the front seat frame. The "D" ring on the retractable 3-point belt bolts to a hole in the B-pillar. If you have non-retractable belts, the other end of the 3-point belt bolts to the B-pillar in place of the "D" ring (which does not exist on non-retractable belts). The retractors are mounted on the inner fender through a hole cut in the rear seat trim and covered with small vinyl covers which are separate pieces. I believe even RoW cars had retractable belts by '73 from the factory. 72-73 cars did not have rear seat belts, but the mounting points are still there since the earlier cars did have rear seat belts they didn't bother to remove the mounting points. You'll find these on the tunnel and the inner wheel well on either side of each rear seat. They were filled with black plastic plugs from the factory.

I assume Mike meant to say "inner wheel" in the OP and is referring to the rear seat belt mounting points.

[stretch]

Mike, i have seen these threaded studs on as early a car as a 71. It is another Porsche trait where they are not on all shells. Use them, they are safer than mounting on your seat. You have plenty of material on the reel to go the extra few inches.

Dave

[DarthMJH]

Cheers for the replies.

Here are pictures of each side to save confusion. You can see the holes in the carpets where the mounts are.

[dirk07]

the mounting pounts should be 20-30 cm closer to the rear seats and 7-10cm lower on the outside than these holes in your carpet.

[911MRP]

Hi Mike

Think fixing on inner sill and on tunnel is used for some three point static equipped 911 circa 73 -- at least here in UK.

My 12/72 73 car (iirc around 6 months older than your car?) has these similar tunnel and sill belt mounts. (To Dirks point: Not commenting on precise location relative to seats since I haven't looked recently)

Agree with Dave this location preferable and also being a factory-fitted location readily provides for harness setup, if needed.

In addition to the usual third high mounting on the door pillar there is a further factory forward-facing belt mount in the rear shelf on RS (and maybe some other models had them too).

As you know my car is model year 73 British C16/EG RHD car like yours. As discussed offline recently it had Kangol LD3 statics as original fit when new. Still got them and their original fitting instructions among my car's box of papers.

Point being in context of your question: These static Kangol's used in GB cars have a cloth short end receiver that works in combination with those tunnel and sill mount locations. Also very handy for a harness.

As you also know from our recent chats I've got a pair of BNIB NOS Kangol LD3/S from 70s with all new fixing hardware, hangers, papers etc -- some pictures here shows the (still quite nice condition) original from my car compared a BNIB NOS spare.



Kangol was aquired in 1972 and the sicker on the BNIB one pictured is clearly early 70s so likley contemporary with my car date of production. The BSI standard number printed on its labels was as on the original sticker and that standard number was superseded from around 72. This combination of supercession date and aquiditiin date points to manufacture around 72. Original Kangol webbing from that era have distinctive number /width / pattern to stripes.

This picture below (also posted elsewhere) shows the British importer press RS demonstrator ( first RS in UK) equipped with these Kangol's that while not in pictured would like my car have been using those sill and tunnel factory lower mounts, similar those to you pictured.

This exerpt is the from the Porsche Cars UK price list, although the belts were actually inclusive on my cars purchase price.

While RoW cars certainly did have retractable by MY73 by no means all. Nor was seat mounting the only way afaik. In addition to my car and the RS in magazine road-test from 1973 I saw a long term owned 73 11/72 RHD E similarly equipped at Silverstone Classic and Ron's very original 12/72 73 Sepia RHD T still has these belts and it had similar mounting iirc. To name but a few examples.

Also the three point Kangol static type belts were used on British model year 72 S press car reviewed about a year earlier than the demonstrator RS. The 1972 magazine Roadtest photo of it below is from a different angle but the distinctive features of Kangol magnetic belt such as curved chrome locking piece, pattern of webbing and little plastic cover/hanger are clear.

Pretty sure later RHD just before 74 MY got different type one handed Kangol's like ones in Paul's 5/73 production UK RHD E targa. Still static three point were available however.

Others in UK from around that time probably got retractable similar to picture of generic style from UK car magazine time of Oct 73 motor-show. Some I've seen got Repa.
.

From offline conversations with Hugh there were certainly regional / country variation on RHD market e.g. Australian manufactured seat belts were required by law down under. I know Kangol were among brands used in South Africa.

Rather like majority of period radios tending to focus on Blaupunkt rather than the full diversity of other radio brands available and often fitted locally, there was clearly importer/ dealer regional variation on seat belts fitted back in the day. Certainly not always just the much discussed factory fit Repa often pictured as often seen in 73 some LHD country-markets. Nor in my experience were the various seatbelts always attached to seat frame in '72/3 -- in some cases belts definitely used sill and tunnel factory mount if they were present, similar mounting points to those shown in your picture.

Seatbelts are one of those many things that evidently did vary by country at that time so generalisations don't help. RoW and USA is oftentimes too broad generalisation. Even in 72 /3 there wasn't a complete "common market" for Europe and the countries signing up to type approval were still relatively few in 72/3 and scheme not yet extending to that many components. The presence of the additional slam panel alloy plate on GB 73 cars pertained to safety standard for equipment in GB. Seatbelts specifically iirc. The safety critical equipment is under control of individual country regulatory authorities. I suspect the specification on some things we perceive today as random like seatbelts and their anchorage points etc etc might well have been denoted as country specific for good reason in country equipment "bundle" code (such as C16/EG) in your case. Specification agreed as the particular country standard configuration for their region between importer and factory. In some cases things would be required or prohibited for national regulatory compliance reasons and others being a country spec that simply meets the importers marketeers judgement of market expectation on luxury vs competitor car offerings. The country specific price lists of that era for GB that I have do show items as standard UK MY items that I believe are paid options in other countries. Presumably this situation further complicated when a customer paid extra for a different but still permissible to country authority factory fit option. Retractable (using different mount) vs static three point being one likley case in point. Plus normal production and supply chain engineering concession variation. All of this on top of normal but planned model year running changes of type documented well in the RS book for 73 and others worked out by dilligent observations in threads here.

My comments in this post are predominantly coming from angle of what I've actually seen of belts and mountings British market RHD 911 72/3 era because I know that is most relevant you and your car. Just my tuppence worth.

Not sure if there is a thread that more fully and more generally covers the full seatbelt brand and mounting point diversity elsewhere on this forum?

HtH

Steve

P.S. For those who like neat original details this transparent sticker advising the sequence to use certain controls and features including step 1: seat belts. It was still attached to the original windscreen of one of the circa 50 British market RHD Carreras from the impact bumper era. I saw it at the weekend. Runs vertically to almost full height of the screen stuck on UK RHD drivers' side:
.
Survived for four decades that way along with another in a central position up above the rear view mirror

[fourteenten]

Mounting points in two different cars...only RS I thought.

Cees

[911MRP]

Hi Cees, Yes. That looks like the same factory belt location in tunnel and inner sill on my series one 02xx RHD and mounting point. Also mounting as seen the Porsche Cars Great Britain press demonstrator RS 006x. Except as explained in UK cars could have Kangol LD3 lap and diagonal static three point belt (not just Repa).

At one time years' ago I wondered if the Kangol version as shown in my previous post was something added later by a PO to replace Repa. Repa brand is all one typically reads about in 72/3 911 context but evidence exists of the 11/72 production date press demonstrator RS that was registered January 1973 clearly having Kangol LD3 in the original roadtest photography back in 73 and the 1972 911s roadtest car original picture having these Kangol LD3 static three point too.

Plus Kangol I've found in a number of late 72 and early 73 British RHD 911 that are long term ownership /believed quite original. I'm now sure the Kangol LD3 belts some using those centre tunnel / sill mountings was fairly normal for GB market cars with three point static configuration -- at least in MY 72 the earlier part of model year 1973.
Other variations of brand and mounting existed here too. To be honest I've mainly focused on the type of belt being intrigued by british Kangol in these German not so much the actual mounting points in chassis or seat -- so will double check.

I strongly suspect the presence of those two mounting points in the inner sill and tunnel on a number of British market 911 of model year 1972 and 1973 (not just RS) is related to meeting British Standards Institute BS AU48 -- standard specifically about seatbelt anchorage. This plate is from a low mileage 40-60k miles fairly unmolested model year 72 British market RHD 911 T that I know well:

BS AU 48 signified that car met the British 1965 standard for seatbelt anchorage points; that standard appears to have been modified in 71 according to this exerpt on www:


By way of historical context, seatbelts in UK had been required since late 60s. By Jan of 1973 the U.K. was just entering the so called "common market" in Jan 1973. Certainly not yet consistency of automotive standards despite much activity to align since the 60s. It is All British market 911 cars featured the additional aluminium plate on the slam panel stating simply BSAU48. Found the vertical directly above the normal bigger aluminium ID plate on slam panel. If it was something worthy of its own plate, I doubt this seatbelt mounting decisions on GB market cars is something random as often said to be case on other 911 mystery variations that we see decades later and try to interpret "train spotting" style. Doubt that Porsche would play fast and loose on safety critical regulated matters even back in the early 70s. I find it a much more likely explaination that factory threaded mountings provided in chassis have a very sound rationale and probably one element of the C16/EG "bundle" specifying GB vehicle equipment requirements. In this case making the GB market cars conform to the then prevailing seatbelt British standard AU48.

Don't think anyone has got to the bottom of exactly what the full package C16/EG country specification comprised even though "The RS book" lists the relevant C16/EG codes. There aren't many however. These and other country equivalents haven't yet been fully decoded, to my knowledge. The C16/EG "bundle" goes beyond obvious RHD side steering wheel mount, wiper mechanism, RHD side for pedals, pedal boards, front mats, dash components, wiper mechanism, interior door armrest handles, different brake lines filler > pedal, smaller smuggler box lid, smaller vin stamp area different metalwork, steel fuel tank plastic not allowed, full size fuch wheel and regular 185/70 15 spare not space-saver, MPH, marked speedo, RHD Bosch H4, single round driver's side door mirror, English language version drivers ( not owners) manual, English maroon maintenance service book marked TES and Carrera RS, plus if applicable for the the circa 100 RHD examples a rare Carrera RS English-language blue drivers supplement, and whatever other GB /RHD configuration many many other things I've no doubt forgotten.

Things that can often be glossed over in generalisations particularly when not so familiar with RHD configurations or indeed other LHD country-market nuances like Italian typically sparse spec and lights or the Swiss rules on horns, the Aussie seatbelt protectionism, French dislike of RS front spoiler, German authorities problem with RS ducktail, Scandinavian twin mirrors and god knows what else the factory had to deal with in managing ROW country configuration before the US so called 73.5 and rafts of other stuff

On my RS I've fitted screw-in eyes bolts with harnesses in these mounting locations presently but the original Kangol pair as pictured (and NOS spares) are safely stored; it is very easy swap them.

To Dave's well made point the factory sill and tunnel mounting, if present has a benefit of being a good bolt in location on chassis itself.

Mike is a good friend of mine and his 911 is a British market RHD T made around 6 months later in the 73 MY than my car - June iirc. Suspect those mounting were there in some markets like UK for three point static seatbelt use. Possibly specified due to prevailing local regulation on permissible belt mountings and with nationally approved belts. Mountings on some probaly remain even if factory retractable were specified as option. Not just on the RS. Certainly there in several other long term owned 73 RHD TES I know of over here in UK with this tunnel and sill mount and Kangol LD3. In fact just last month at Fairmile I was discussing seatbelts with owner of an Oxford blue RHD GB 911 built 12/73 so same month as as mine and he said during restoration his car had Repa of type you show in the pictures but he knew the Repa brand were not the correct original ones for GB car. Pretty sure he had those REPas fitted in these two mounting points, but I'll check when we next meet.

Steve

[DarthMJH]

Thanks for the information Steve. This has turned into a very informative thread.