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Thread: Ultimate 69S factory Sports purpose thread

  1. #1
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    Ultimate 69S factory Sports purpose thread

    A couple of recent threads have prompted my thoughts about Factory built sports purpose cars in 1969 – especially 69S ones. This seems to me to be a gap in the factory-built sports purpose cars.

    A few years ago we created a very long thread on ST’s that were made between 1970 MY and 1972MY and there have been numerous posts and threads on the sports purpose cars from 1968 and earlier. Hence me titling this as an “ultimate” thread like we did with the ST thread.


    However apart from some factory rally cars and the 4 1969 GTS cars that have also been the subject of various posts such as here there has been no mention (that I can remember or find) of any factory built for private use 1969S’s until @nashman started this post on the Vard 911S here and then shortly afterwards @ glaverbel911 posted that he also had a 69S that had also been modified for competition use at Werk1 when being built here


    I thought that it would be worthwhile starting a separate thread to see if we can identify any more of these special cars.


    In 1968 there were at least 20 TR’s, as well as a number of L Rallye cars and L Trans Am and L Circuit racers, all with sports purpose parts on them since new and many with notes on their kardexes that the engines had been modified for more power so that they did not have any warranty. In addition, many had special ratio competition gearboxes that had 928 xxxx serial numbers. They are all signs of competition cars prepared from new either for factory or customer use.


    However so far as I can see there were only a handful of 1968S’s with any sort of sports purpose parts (mostly roll bar, Limited Slip diff and either Sport Kit II or Rallye kit II) on them. Perhaps that is because the TR’s in particular had the S (or sometimes 906 or R) engines and they were homologated to a lighter weight than the S. Also, it appears that the S was not eligible for Trans Am racing in the USA. (But perhaps Don Ahearn can provide more information on that). It seems that most of the L’s in 1968 were either Trans am cars or, in Europe in particular, rally cars where homologated weight was less important given all the extras that rally cars had on them. However, there were also L circuit cars run in particular by Kremer that I have no details of at this stage.


    In 1970 there was a run of at about 30 (maybe more) factory built ST’s (of which 7 were used by the werks team) as well as “lightweight S’s” and stock T’s that could be built into ST’s with a factory supplied kit. the construction of factory built ST’s continued in 1971 and 1972 before the RS program provided RS based cars as the factory-built sports purpose option.


    So, it seems a bit strange that there were not more factory-built sports purpose cars based on the 69S especially as the standard road car was such a potent car.

    The werks cars were the 4 GTS’s, three of which ran in the 1968 Marathon de la Route and the other was used as a practice car for various events before being sold off for use as a rally car in Peru as that group of cars were not homologated or eligible for any other type of motorsport, and the other 7 were all rally cars. So the cars used in competition did not have to be built on a lightweight shell and the lightweights that were built (GTS’s) were not eligible anyway.


    It is notable that the 911’s competing in the 1969 Le Mans were mostly 1968TR’s that had competed in 1968 as well (exceptions being Gaban in a “68S” shown as having the same weight as the TR’s and one other 84kg heavier 68 S for Farjon – 11800120).

    So there were NO 1969S’s there despite it being almost at the end of the model year for them.


    It is notable that both the @nashman and @ glaverbel911 cars started out as rally cars and therefore the only way that the special features could be discovered was from the Kardex such as shown here. it is also notable that both of these cars have extra notations on the Kardex of M-Liste “special work” being done to them a Werk1 that voided the warranty. Again, this is only found on the Kardex. So it is possible that there are others out there to be found and documented. However I suspect that there will be only a handful like there were with the “heavier” 1968S’s – but I will be happy to be proven wrong.
    Last edited by HughH; 01-14-2020 at 10:28 PM.
    Hugh Hodges
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Scott A's Avatar
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    Just up front
    What are the meaning of the letters?
    R = rennen, race
    GTS = Grand touring sport
    TR = touring race
    ST = sport touring
    RS = race sport
    L = luxury
    M =

    If there are more, please list, and I will add to list, plus corrections.
    Or are they for German words?
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  3. #3
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    Scott
    On the TR they relate to T being the bodyshell used as it was lighter but R possibly for Rennen but to signify that it had the more powerful engine (mostly S spec and numbers) in it. Sometimes the TR was called a T/H for homologation. I am not sure that the term was ever officially used in period as it was homologated as a T and they were all within the T vin number series (to get the numbers) but those homologation papers (FIA 577) also specified the use of 408.xxxx and 418.xxxx engines which were S engines (and could obviously be taken to even higher tune within an individual engine case)
    For ST as well I dont think it was a name used in the public at the time but factory build documents show a hand written T after the S on at last some build documents. These car were built initially on a 1970 "lightweight S" or homologation S bodyshell with an S vin hence the S. i am not completely sure of the T but I have heard that it refers to the fact that they were lightweight like the earlier T shells rather than meaning anything special

    I don't think there has been anything on why the special GTS cars were called that - but "Grand touring" or Grand Tourisme" were accepted meanings for GT and they were S spec cars.

    There are different interpretations of L but the most common I have seen is "lux" presumably referring to luxury - they had the S luxury features without the S engine
    Hugh Hodges
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  4. #4
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    GTS cars

    here are the 4 GTS cars from left to right 119300004, 003, 008, and 009

    Name:  gts.jpg
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    registration numbers respectively are S-H 7347, S-H 7686, S-H 7687 and S-H 7685
    Hugh Hodges
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  5. #5
    Hugh - trying to read about the @glsverbill911 but your link doesnít work.

    The 1969 911GTS is unique in that is how it is referred to in internal documents too. Either GTS or GT-S. I assume that is not the case for the TRís and STís, etc.?

    Wasnít there some speculation that 1969 the small werks organization was really focused on the 917 so the 911 didnít have as many resources?

    Also as noted elsewhere, we know the factory tried to enter two 1969 2.0 liter 911ís in LeMans but were rejected. My speculation is that they were two of the 911GTSís.
    The early Sís...

    1967 S Coupe
    1969 S werks
    1973 RS Coupe (an honorary S?)

    My real passion are 356ís

  6. #6
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    and the first series of rally cars

    Left to right:
    S-L 2266 119300549 Monte Carlo 1969 Pauli Toivonen / Klaus Lehto von Beifahre car #25
    S-L 2263 119300529 Winner Monte Carlo 1969 Waldegaard / Helmer car#37
    S-L 2264 119300530 Monte Carlo 1969 Larousse / Perramound car #31
    S-L 2265 119300548 Monte Carlo 1969 Elford / Stone car #28

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    Last edited by HughH; 01-14-2020 at 08:24 PM.
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

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    Early S Registry #776

  7. #7
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    and the second series of rally cars

    For the Acropolis rally in 1969

    119300912 S-M 2927 Waldegaard / Helmer car #6 (DNF)

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    119300931 S-M 2928 Larousse / Perramound car #4 (DNF punctured fuel tank)

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    and
    119300932 S-M 2929 Toivonen / Colari car #1 (Winner).

    Name:  1.png
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    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

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    Early S Registry #776

  8. #8
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    I think the link is fixed now thanks for picking that up
    Yes they were focused on the 917's BUT I thought the money did not run out for the 911 program until 1971 / 72
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Scott A's Avatar
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    Hugh, what was it that made the T body lighter weight?

    And, in general, how much lighter was the body?
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  10. #10
    Those M-Liste option cars are interesting. It’s the extra engine performance only or are there other possible special options that could be or were ordered? Any documentation? Beyond the “regular” sports purpose options.
    The early Sís...

    1967 S Coupe
    1969 S werks
    1973 RS Coupe (an honorary S?)

    My real passion are 356ís

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