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Thread: Ultimate 69S factory Sports purpose thread

  1. #11
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott A View Post
    Hugh, what was it that made the T body lighter weight?

    And, in general, how much lighter was the body?
    The shell was the same but the T cars had a lot less options/ equipment in them hence they were lighter. Not special steel in those years but there was lighter gauge shells in the 1970 Model year and possibly in the 1969 model year (apart from the GTS's)

    There is a suggestion that at least some 1969 body shells were "lightweight" but i have not yet seen documented proof. I am hoping this thread might draw out that type of information

    The 1968 T homologation weight (FIA 577) shows 923 kg (2035 lbs)
    The 1966 911S homologation (which I think that they were still using as I cant find a separate 68s one and it has attachments to it with 68 vin numbers) shows 974Kg or 2149.4 Lbs in the same spot (which is with full equipment including spare tire and tools and ready to drive but with an empty fuel tank)

    As a matter of interest the 1969S homologation (FIA 608) shows 940kg and the 1969 T homologation (FIA 607) shows 974kg in the same section as I used for the earlier years and the 1970 S (FIA 3025) (Homologated especially as a lightweight version) shows 960kg hence my thoughts that there may be "lightweight shells" around in 69.
    Last edited by HughH; 01-14-2020 at 10:41 PM. Reason: more information
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

    Early S Registry #776

  2. #12
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rower View Post
    Those M-Liste option cars are interesting. It’s the extra engine performance only or are there other possible special options that could be or were ordered? Any documentation? Beyond the “regular” sports purpose options.

    I am sure there are other options - it effectively seems to be a bespoke option list for Werk1 doing things that are not in the normal M option list (which is very extensive itself). From what I have seen in the earlier cars there are different hand written M-Liste numbers on different kardexes suggesting customization. I am hoping Karim may get some of that documentation from the factory for his book on all of the documentation that he is doing in conjunction with the museum
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

    Early S Registry #776

  3. #13
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    Well done Hugh, excellent idea to launch this thread.

    I don't want to take it off track by talking about 1968 Sports Purpose again, which as Hugh correctly says has been talked about on numerous threads , however I think it is important to just flag up some areas of body modification to the T(R's) that I failed to find documented in detail, unless it was covered by the "Body fitted out for competition purposes" found in the Sports Purpose document under Kit No. 9553.

    The two areas were the blanking off of the 'B' post engine pull recess and removal of the metal guide tube for the engine lid release wire because GHE rubber hold downs were used to secure the rear lid, secondly the removal of the interior vent metal work at the rear of the roof which was either blanked over (as found on TR's) or left open as on R's.

    I flag this up to not only support the 'lighter T' shell discussions but also to highlight things that I think can be found on the 69GTS's and therefore possibly something to look out for on other 69 competition prepared cars?
    Tim

    Early 911S Registry #1167

  4. #14
    Senior Member beh911's Avatar
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    119300865

    Hugh:
    As you know, much of this data exists scattered about ESR.
    I respectfully submit a few entries for the list:

    This is glaverbell's (Robert's) M Liste car, referenced in your first post.

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    1969 S Coupe #761
    Early S Registry #1624

  5. #15
    Senior Member beh911's Avatar
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    119300644

    While not M. Liste per Kardex, this car deserves mentioning as it was a stock 69S, heavily converted for competition to include ST modifications.

    https://www.coys.co.uk/cars/the-froh...porsche-911-st

    Lot description excerpt:
    "119300644 was manufactured as a normal S by the factory and duly sent to the Werks Porsche Competition Department who converted T, E, and S specification cars into S/T Specification straight from the production line. The car was sold to Kent Frohde, resplendent in Conda Green, on the 22th September 1971. The engine- an original 2 Litre was tuned to 242bhp. According to Kent Frohde, this was the strongest 2 litre engine that Porsche had tuned at the time.

    The car was raced in Swedish racing series at the beginning of the 1970s until it was retired, and the last time it was road worthy was 1976. During 1970 to 1976 it followed the evolution of race cars and was upgraded to meet the competition.

    Chassis 119300644 comes complete with a large history file, containing a letter from Kent Frohde confirming its authenticity. The car has been used by its current owner on a large number of European events and rallies where it has performed well. It also benefits from a recent and documented engine rebuild."

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    Last edited by beh911; 01-15-2020 at 03:26 PM.
    1969 S Coupe #761
    Early S Registry #1624

  6. #16
    For more reference

    Petrolicious article on GTS that won the Marathon

    https://petrolicious.com/articles/th...ifieds-section

    More related threads

    http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...light=Marathon
    The early Ss...

    1967 S Coupe
    1969 S werks
    1973 RS Coupe (an honorary S?)

    My real passion are 356s

  7. #17
    Senior Member beh911's Avatar
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    GT 69 Cars...

    Might as well get these obscure references in this thread for discussion:

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    ^^^came from below, published in mid '68:
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    1969 S Coupe #761
    Early S Registry #1624

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by HughH View Post
    The shell was the same but the T cars had a lot less options/ equipment in them hence they were lighter. Not special steel in those years but there was lighter gauge shells in the 1970 Model year and possibly in the 1969 model year (apart from the GTS's)

    There is a suggestion that at least some 1969 body shells were "lightweight" but i have not yet seen documented proof. I am hoping this thread might draw out that type of information

    The 1968 T homologation weight (FIA 577) shows 923 kg (2035 lbs)
    The 1966 911S homologation (which I think that they were still using as I cant find a separate 68s one and it has attachments to it with 68 vin numbers) shows 974Kg or 2149.4 Lbs in the same spot (which is with full equipment including spare tire and tools and ready to drive but with an empty fuel tank)

    As a matter of interest the 1969S homologation (FIA 608) shows 940kg and the 1969 T homologation (FIA 607) shows 974kg in the same section as I used for the earlier years and the 1970 S (FIA 3025) (Homologated especially as a lightweight version) shows 960kg hence my thoughts that there may be "lightweight shells" around in 69.

    Hugh, here’s your documented proof that the lightweight GTS’s used a thin metal shell. Plus aluminum front / rear bumpers, door skins, engine and hood deck lids, and front fenders/wings. Even things like roll bar and headlight buckets were aluminum.

    Note that fully loaded for racing with fluids and tools they were weighed at approximately 928kg racing weight. (Actual weighed GTS’s were 928kg but I suspect they state 940kg on some docs as it ties into the homologation weight of the dry 1969S mentioned by Hugh above). Subtract the 72kg of fuel and that’s down to 856kg. Then Subtract oil and tools and spares, and these were lighter than the 911R which is misleadingly quoted with no fluids or tools etc. (and none of which actually weighed the 810kg that is often quoted).

    First page of the changes (it goes on for more pages)

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    Translation:

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    Last edited by rower; 01-15-2020 at 10:31 AM.
    The early Ss...

    1967 S Coupe
    1969 S werks
    1973 RS Coupe (an honorary S?)

    My real passion are 356s

  9. #19
    Senior Member beh911's Avatar
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    So the GT 69 reference I made above is explained in your post, rower.
    Very helpful
    1969 S Coupe #761
    Early S Registry #1624

  10. #20
    I have Kardex copies for 3 '69 911T Werks built SCCA C Prod cars if that fits in this thread?

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