how to know a 73 RS series 1/2/3 car from the vin

[windhover]

Hello! Am doing some research on 2.7 RS and trying to understand what vins would determine the cutoff for series 1/2/3 cars?

At first I thought it would be 0001-0500, 0501-1000, 1001+

However it seems that due so some prototype and maybe some scrapped chassis/vins during production, it’s more like 001X-052X, 052X-1036, then 1036-1580? But it also says total production is 1580.

Really appreciate it if someone could shed some light!

[911MRP]

Welcome. Interesting first post!

Short answer is excluding prototypes and so forth the RS (911744) started at vin 0011 so that is taken as the best approximation even though they were built in a different sequence and vin was stamped towards end of physical assembly

Longer answer is as far as I’ve been able to determine it from various conversations with Porsche AG and Porsche Cars Great Britain and reading details my own cars earliest documentation:
- When a customer order was confirmed By Porsche it received a Komm Nr and that is afaik the first formal unique reference number to what would become an instance of the 911744 model ( leaving aside the separate conversion order for the homologation examples for now)
- later about a month in my cars case the confirmed order was entered into the Factory production system to create a unique production number for the chassis which identifies the instance of the car for production planning purposes. The date it is entered into is recorded on the production planning system.
- at some point a multipart fahzeug- auftrag was printed out and leaves sent to various departments ( they are listed as abbreviations in the margins) a copy accompanies the chassis (in fact stuck to it with masking tape when enough of the car exists in the metal ) and others likley accompanied engine and gearbox through their build the main serial parts referred to in matching numbers
- On the fahzeug-auftrag the point when the main serialised components are united as a whole stickers are attached to the fahzeug auftrag each with a date stamp presumably signifying the cars “birth” as a complete entity for first time ( there are various quality cards etc for each of these components)
- the dates on the stickers (vin, motor and gearbox) are chronologically close but not the same day but the vin is the later of the three dates.
- then the fahzeug auftrag has a further date stamped on the top right corner presumably when the car is deemed completed

So splitting hairs it depends on whether the Komm Nr the production number or vin number is used to determine the sequence and any segmentation. Since the first two are not generally known and Porsche aggressively guard the fahzeug auftrag info most folks use the vin as the publicly available datapoint to approximate sequence.

Starkey, Konradsheim and other references lis5 the chassis number with a production date ( unlike fahzeug auftrag only to month not day) so that is easiest source. Maybe even available on www. Close enough for government work to use vin even though for practical operational reasons the sequence was slightly different.

The conversion order which was mandatory for the homologation examples (except a few left as cheapest Base spec) until Homologation certification was completed with the FIA had other dates stamped on it as things got added— for example in my case being one of the RS reserves go white with blue even the blue decals which weigh very little were added after the weigh station visit as part of conversion process ! The handwritten marks and ticks and crossing outs make the fahzeug-auftrag and conversion order interesting reading. The dates record key milestones through lifecycle inside factory. The conversion for the vast majority after the first build also added time in build process but it didn’t change the dates by then recorded on the main fahzeug auftrag so probably irrelevant for segmenting the nominal three series.

Incidentally in the U.K. the sole importer at one time kept a handwritten log book for all Porsche cars imported not just RS. Obviously logically this is indexed (first column) is Komm Nr as that is the earliest unique reference before production was scheduled or chassis physically existed. As order progresses information is appended by hand right the way through to receiving of truck With cars from factory in Isleworth; culminating in the registration date that also shows name of first customer. I am fortunate have this handwritten ledger entry for my RS — that handwritten line on a paper ledger plus the fahzeug-auftrag / the conversion order as well as copy of the county council licensing document ( known as green log book) recording its first registration with original registration. A little set that together give the key milestones and is the the definitive full matching numbers: Komm Nr, production number, vin number, engine number and gearbox number, first licence plate number. Order October 72 week of model launch to road registration /customer delivery in early 1973.

There are folks old enough to have been involved in this procedure and may know more but the RS wasn’t officially sold in USA of course!

In the murky world of RS with cars raced wrecked restamped , motors swapped , replicas homages fakes duplicates etc provenance and paperwork all the way back to before the car was even metal vital for serious minded owners. Possibly the most important things to have.

From memory the technical information book says just over 300 (319?) examples built during calendar 1972 but not sure if that is vin number of last one made that year (probably) or actual examples from production records /production number which might be a few handfuls less because of the 0011. Either way a 1972 built RS is first 500.

The second series was announced in October Soon after the launch of first series

I’ve posted this elsewhere but as announced in U.K. around time of Earl’s Court motorshow held 1972 .. no sign of factory thinking of a more productionized third series deemed not needed for Group 3 and group 4 homologation goals after all.



Incidentally for folks researching the segmentation of the 911744 the term “lightweight 911 Carrera RS coupé” used here contemporary with earliest examples of car was for M471 and M472 — in the first series there weren’t 51 M471 Sport RHD for sure. In fact less than a tenth of that we’re M471 RHD in that original 51 quota 500. So it is obviously referring to the fact that all the chassis were thinner lightweight shell. Plus things like forged crossmember etc etc.

Always interested to learn more or be corrected from RS experts or people who worked in the factory or importers at the time and have facts.

Hope this helps.

[windhover]

Hello! Thank you for the welcome. I hope I’m one step closer to an RS ownership.

It is very murky as you said. I do see RS have serials running from 11 through to 1590 for 1580 cars which is a widely accepted and confirmed number. However there is not a lot of information about how to differentiate between a series 1/2/3 car. If we are purely speaking on homologation cars, does that strictly apply to series 1 cars and the remainder 1080 would be not related for homologation purposes hence does not have a coveted thinner metal panels etc. however the 2.8 RSR which I imagine is extremely rare and sought after, is based on a series 3 car?

If the early cars are indeed a lot lighter, I would imagine early RS touring cars must be similar in weight to thicker panel lightweight cars? Would be very interesting if people actually weighed their cars and saw how much in real life they were!

[210bhp]

Interesting read Steve as always.
What we know is that 500 cars were commissioned, all were sold at pre-launch or at launch.
We know that chassis were not built and completed in sequential order.
At some point it was decided to build more than 500 so production past chassis 500 continued seamlessly into the next 500 (still in a random order).
At some point it was decided to build more than 1000 which is when things got a little messy.

The other point to consider is the availability of the thin gauge panels. We know there are some cross over shells with a mixture of thin and normal thickness steel panels up to a point where they became ‘normal’ shells completely constructed as the other shells in the range except for the RS ‘bits’.

Historically was the designation of ‘fist series’, ‘second series’ and ‘third series’ ever used at the time or is that something that has ‘caught on’ by subsequent historians just like the misnomer of the term ‘lightweight’ which was never used at the time. In other words does anyone have written factory evidence of those terms?
The conception of numbers to be constructed was determined by homologation requirements initially and not by production capacity nor likely sales.
My point is should we even be using those terms or dates or vin numbers to ‘separate’ the nuances of the total production run if it was never thought of at the time?

Would it not be better to describe the series as ‘original concept’, ‘mixed concept’ and ‘final run’ which we know does not correspond to 500,1000 and 1580 as most try to classify?

Regards
Mike

[911MRP]

Good point I often comment about “lightweight” but freely use the term “series” which probably as loose ...ha ha!

There is very clearly a factory position on the exclusivity of 500 in the external marketing which must’ve caused a little bit of deft footwork in communicating this to the buyers who expected to be one of the “Only 500 men” when the number was doubled

Probably fortunately for folks tasked with communications the Group 3 to 4 eligibility from the further 500 required gave them a rationale still linked to a limited series 911 for homologation.

For me the engineering led motorsport intent and the very meticulous ( reducilously inefficient ) approach to weight saving at times for very margins. result (e.g. why bother sourcing a plastic horn push) changed when group homologation goals achieved. This is the point when things changed. The pragmatic using up of extant thin panel supply and whether some examples have a mixture (often debated and maybe roughly known) but for me when all the inefficient costly loops and hoops they were jumping though were called off the 911744; the whole essence changed at that point. That’s what I’d argue. Can’t blame them for cashing in On unexpected success and some lovely examples of later cars exist ( maybe by then with the success people knew was a future classic a bit more care of some care the salesman who sold mine new told me one of the six customers put his away at new)

For me in defining an important transition beyond that point with maybe one or two that had homologation role it smacked a little of the sales and marketing initial naysayers getting back in driving seat and doing what they could before the impact version to milk it.

In some ways it’s fun to debate these terms and transition — but it seems these things do affect value. The “lightweight” M471 vs only an M472 “inferior”. Not always deeper understanding of at some point the factory going ....meh!....and simply giving up on many of the things that had been so intensely front and centre on those first 500 and ~ 500more therefore is a point often completely lost on some buyers. Having said that I’m seeing the use of the “series” in listings more and more these days although for reasons you say maybe term as questionable as lightweight — it is registering. Maybe a case of if you can’t beat them join them — drip feeding informal terms That catch attention in these sound bite days then let more informed buyers decide what they value . Don’t see the ingrained lightweight Pavlovian reaction changing anytime soon but information is available for folks to know and decide.

Let’s not forget from official factory sources back in the day in various magazines phrasing couldn’t be more clear :



"Nur 500 Männer werden ihn fahren"... in black and white published in many magazines contemporary with cars when brand new so it must be right ..."Only 500 men will drive it"

Given that I simply don’t know what folks with examples built after that initial quantity are driving ... ha ha..

[windhover]

That’s a great one advert! What must the other 1,080 be driving haha...

So would it be correct to assume chassis 11-510 are considered the ‘original’ 500 that was sold 1 week from launch?

and cars 511+ onwards were later productions that took advantage of the market, and as they got later into the production, was less ‘faithful’ to the original 500 less of the thin gauge panels etc?

Also it seems the ‘sport’ models are more extreme in early 500 ie no clocks whereas I’ve seen some of the later ones having the clock back. Again I don’t know some owner just added a clock back on or not..

[72targa]

This site is of interest...

https://www.porscheregister.com/regi...lter=OK#search

[911MRP]

I suggest if you are planning on buying an RS get a konradsheim book (second edition has more info) also then read the Carrera RS for sale thread as a lot gets posted in the to and fro commentary on car fs or general points that are of note get discussed in passing.

Folks here will help a buyer who is serious and wants to learn thre are many things beyond just where in sequence they were produced as they are nearly fifty years old and some have been to hell and back and some Claiming to be were never RS in first place.

In fairness when they doubled the production per the press snippet they were were working towards an fia homologation goal too So those roughly 500 examples were much like the first 500 made It was only after homologation goals were achieved (plus some spares) they able to revert to a more normal modus operandi. Late examples can be very fine motorcars and some have interesting unique features only found late in the run.

I do bang the gong for the earlier cars because of the way the market sometimes simplistically jumps on M471 as “lightweight“ but doesn’t always choose to recognise some subtleties. Regular folks here know I’m just back on my soapbox

Frankly I’d say don’t discount later examples just recognise generally the homologation raison d’etre was largely over by time later ones were made ( other than a few mentioned on homologation papers ) so these became much more like the series Production cars in parts and assembl. Nothing wrong with that! As long as it is understood and factored in

Remember: Just cos it looks like an RS doesn’t mean that it is one. Too many jump in without due dilligence

A good RS is a very versatile rewarding classic model that will do most things owners want of a hobby classic not just among longhoods but among classic cars generally but the RS market many pitfalls for the less experienced.

There are a few very knowledgable helpful folks here who will chime in if you are narrowing down on one or two examples and need advice — maybe even know it and can help With due diligence.

Treat each example as an individual case and make the trade offs on all kinds of things: provenance, condition, place in sequence M47x variant etc etc etc and I’m sure you’ll be pleased when you buy a good one.

Good luck

Steve

[windhover]

http://www.lehrenkrauscafe.com/vbfor...ead.php?t=3290

I found this very lengthy and informative too.

The porscheregister database confirms this as well, seems chassis starts from 11, so I was thinking the original 500 would be 11-510 vins.

[windhover]

Thank you very much for your input Steve.

As said I’m not really trying to single out the first gen but I see many people refer to the ‘3’ 500 cars quite differently so I’m trying to understand, which is which 500 actually!!