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Thread: Porsche 911s - Tour de France 1969

  1. #1
    Xavier Petit-Jean-Boret Xavier PJB's Avatar
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    Porsche 911s - Tour de France 1969

    Greetings,

    As some of you may know, I did participate to "Tour Auto Optic 2000" 2020 edition with my SWB. that was fantastic.
    Nevertheless, I entered into the regularity group, because my swb does not have a HTP (PTH in French), I could not be within the "competition" group (the one that does flat out / pedal to the metal)

    Therefore, I now have the project to get a HTP for my swb and get registered in "competition" group for the 2021 edition.
    Now I need to find Porsche 911 SWBs which is neither a prototype nor group 4 (like a R or T/R), which entered the Tour de France Auto in 1969. I would be then in a position to "replicate" it and get registered etc.

    Here the list of 911s I seek information (like pictures or tech specs) about to build/replicate :

    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. SPT2.0 #85 driven by Hugues de Ferlant and Christian Delferrier
    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #130 driven by J. Hullsman
    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #131 driven by Georges Alexandrovitch
    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #132 driven by Jean-Georges Branche

    Below the one with a question mark as a model - in Europe there was no normal but Ts and Ss if am right.
    Porsche 911 ? 2000 cat. SPT2.0 #81 driven by Pierre Portier
    Porsche 911 ? 2000 cat. SPT2.0 #82 driven by Jean Sage
    Porsche 911 ? 2000 cat. TS2.0 #83 driven by J. Lemaitre
    Porsche 911 ? 2000 cat. SPT2.0 #84 driven by Guy Chasseuil (looks like a T/R - but this one is #84 and the T/R with the similar Decoration is #121 in GT2.0 class)

    FIA class from 1966 to 1969 (changed from 1970)
    SPT2.0 = Special Touring 2000 or Group 5
    TS2.0 = Touring 2000 or Group 2
    GT2.0 = Grand Tourisme 2000 or group ?

    Any information is more than welcome.

    All the best.

    EDIT-below my updated research :

    These are the various FIA homologation sheets I found on the FIA historic database. These are pre 1970.

    - Form 183 is Group 3, Grand Tourisme (GT) class, 911 -> https://historicdb.fia.com/car/porsche-911-1
    - Form 503 is Group 4, Grand Tourisme Special (GTS) class, 1966, 911 & 911L -> https://historicdb.fia.com/car/porsche-911-0
    - Form 547 is Group 4, Grand Tourisme Special class, (GTS) 911 S -> https://historicdb.fia.com/car/porsche-911-s-1
    - Form 577 is group 3, Grand Tourisme class (GT), 911 T -> https://historicdb.fia.com/car/porsche-911-t-0
    - Form 1451 is Group 2, Tourisme class, 911 & 911L -> https://historicdb.fia.com/car/porsche-911-2

    Therefore, if I make an attempt (what a headhache !) to match homologation form to the 911s non prototype/non TR attending the 1969 TdF, that might look like :
    Assuming group 2 and 5 same FIA form

    Porsche 911 ? 2000 cat. TS2.0 #83 Form 1451 - group2 or Tourisme ( 1965 or 1966 normale, 1967 normale, or 1968 L)

    Porsche 911 ? 2000 cat. SPT2.0 #81
    Form 1451 - group 5 or or Special Tourisme (SPT)
    Porsche 911 ? 2000 cat. SPT2.0 #82 Form 183 or 503 - group x or xxxxxxx (1965 as per the Vin 303076)
    Porsche 911 ? 2000 cat. SPT2.0 #84 Form 1451 - group 5 or Special Tourisme (SPT) (Model ? seems to be a 1966 or a 1967)
    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. SPT2.0 #85 Form 1451 - group 5
    or Special Tourisme (SPT) ( 911 S)

    I tend to believe that the privateers played with the model types and homologation sheets.
    One possible scenario : a 911 S or T or L or normale are 911 after all, and then they could entered a 911 S as a generic 911. As an exemple : form 1451 is group 2 / Tourisme and concerns only 911 coup from 1966, add on in 1967 and another for the 911L in 1968.

    However the FIA homologation forms specifies in field #250 the HP. So for 1451 it is 130HP. Therefore how #85 can be competing in SPT with form 1451 ?

    Man, that is a very complex riddle indeed.

    Porsche 911 T 2000 cat. GT2.0 #124 GT class, form 577 -
    Porsche 911 T 2000 cat. GT2.0 #125 GT class, form 577 -
    Porsche 911 T 2000 cat. GT2.0 #126 GT class, form 577 -

    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #127 GT class, form 547
    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #128 GT class, form 547
    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #129 GT class, form 547

    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #130 GT class, form 547

    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #131 GT class, form 547
    Porsche 911 S 2000 cat. GT2.0 #132 GT class, form 547



    Source : racingsportscars.com

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    Last edited by Xavier PJB; 09-22-2020 at 10:36 PM.
    O-G 26 - Early911S 2407Current Stable:Porsche 911 L 1968 Light Ivory - Porsche 911 E 1973 Ruby Red - Porsche 924 Martini 1977 - VW T2 Devon White/Green 1978.Porsche 944 Turbo Graphite Metal 1986 - Porsche Panamera Sporturismo E-hybrid 2018

  2. #2
    Cool! Good luck, Xavier!

    John
    1965 911 #301111, Red Book Vol 1 "Cover Car," owned 50 years.
    1967 911 #307347, bare-bones, some road wear, a little surface rust, and a few dents..., owned 10 years.
    1970 914/6GT, (Sold - ran the last three Rennsports)owned 30 years.


    Photography Site: JohnStraubImageWorks.com

    Pushin' back the hands of time, "Along For The Ride" at, http://www.johnstraub.blogspot.com

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    R Gruppe #741

  3. #3
    Xavier Petit-Jean-Boret Xavier PJB's Avatar
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    Found additional pics of #84 (road registration 179 VH 75) )- from Rallye de Picardie 1969, France
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    O-G 26 - Early911S 2407Current Stable:Porsche 911 L 1968 Light Ivory - Porsche 911 E 1973 Ruby Red - Porsche 924 Martini 1977 - VW T2 Devon White/Green 1978.Porsche 944 Turbo Graphite Metal 1986 - Porsche Panamera Sporturismo E-hybrid 2018

  4. #4
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    Hi Xavier
    That is quite a project you are taking on. There has been a lot posted on this board over the years on the early homologation of the 911. I have some detail but am by no means the expert on this. However I will try to spell out what I have in my various notes etc on it.
    Firstly however on the cars you have posted photos of. I try to keep files on various cars by registration plate and where possible then find a vin or similar to identify them. Unfortunately while I have some of the cars you posted in my files I don't have any details to identify any of them.

    It would also be worth looking at Le Mans and Targa Florio entry / race record papers as they show the car and what category they raced in. it is possible that there was a car in TdF and one of the others as well. A quick scan of the 911's at Le Mans in those years show mostly GT2.0 as does the targa florio ones and it was not until 1970 that GT+2.0 appear which I think are Gp4 cars

    The following may be helpful though. From what I understand

    • The original homologation of the 911 was into Group 3 on Homologation Form 183 Group 3 is Grand Touring cars GT
    • The next Homologation of the 911 is covered by Form No. 503 This again is a Group 3 Grand Touring Car.
    • The 911S was originally homologated into Group 3 and is again a Grand Touring Car
    • The 911T - which we now refer to as the T/R- was homologated into Group 3 using Homologation Form 577 and is again a Grand Touring car.
    • Group 3 car CANNOT be upgraded or transfer into Group 5. They can be upgraded into Group 4 as Special GT and there is specific homologation papers covering this usually as a part of the Gp 3 papers and they are usually marked "valid only for Group4" is using 906 parts or special engine and bodywork parts etc


    Group 5 were "upgraded" / modified TOURING cars or Gp2 cars. Normally these would be 4 door saloon cars. However the notes I have from previous posts here (cant remember who but a search may find it and more detail) state "
    The 911 was also and unusually homologated as a Touring Car into Group 2 using Homologation Form 1451 on 01-01-1966. The 911S and 911L were included as extensions to this basic form. This is why Porsche refer to Group 5 in the context of the 911S and 911L.

    So from that I would say your choices are to use homologation 1451 and go the Gp2 and Gp5 route (TS2.0 or SPT2.0 in the categories you state) OR go the more traditional for Porsche Gp3 GT2.0 (or Gp4 ) route
    The homologation papers can all be downloaded and one copy I have of the 1966 homologation (dated 21.11.1966) is originally showing typed as 1451 but that is crossed out and has 503 handwritten and later has GT-Spezial handwritten on the front page and also "Gruppe4" pages especially for 911L from December 1967



    from the racingsportscars entry list that I think you are working from the cars in the 80's range of start numbers are mainly Gp5 but also Gp2 cars and the ones in the 120's start number range seem to be both Gp3 and Gp4 (the T/R's definitely Gp4 I would think) but shown as GT2.0. However it looks like the classification system at the TdF MAY be different to the FIA one if the description of the classes on one of the pages is accurate. So i am not sure how or if that will help you
    Last edited by HughH; 09-17-2020 at 05:30 AM.
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

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  5. #5
    Xavier Petit-Jean-Boret Xavier PJB's Avatar
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    Hugh,

    as usual you are a mine of information. Thanks for that, very much.
    I need to be more precise on one key thing on my project is the fact that the car MSUT have participated/been engaged to the Tour de France Auto. Also, the FIA class/groups changed a lot from 1970. What am in in the FIA rules from 1966 to 1969.

    Back to my list which are the 911s (excluding prototypes) which have been engaged into the Tour de France Automobile 1969.

    I have now a special focus on #84 road registered 179 VH 75 and still looking for which FIA form is built from ( I guess this is group 5 with form 1451).

    X
    homologation_form_number_1451_group_2.pdf
    O-G 26 - Early911S 2407Current Stable:Porsche 911 L 1968 Light Ivory - Porsche 911 E 1973 Ruby Red - Porsche 924 Martini 1977 - VW T2 Devon White/Green 1978.Porsche 944 Turbo Graphite Metal 1986 - Porsche Panamera Sporturismo E-hybrid 2018

  6. #6
    Manufacturing "anorak" Soterik's Avatar
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    In the top picture of car #84, I believe that to be a 1967 911S. The shot shows the side windows which to me are clearly chrome, not anodized aluminum.

    E
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  7. #7
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    Xavier,
    Do you know the registration numbers of each car?
    This may help to identify them in others races.

  8. #8
    Senior Member ejboyd5's Avatar
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    What is an "HTP"?

  9. #9
    Xavier Petit-Jean-Boret Xavier PJB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 928cs View Post
    Xavier,
    Do you know the registration numbers of each car?
    This may help to identify them in others races.
    Unfortunately not, not yet
    O-G 26 - Early911S 2407Current Stable:Porsche 911 L 1968 Light Ivory - Porsche 911 E 1973 Ruby Red - Porsche 924 Martini 1977 - VW T2 Devon White/Green 1978.Porsche 944 Turbo Graphite Metal 1986 - Porsche Panamera Sporturismo E-hybrid 2018

  10. #10
    Xavier Petit-Jean-Boret Xavier PJB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejboyd5 View Post
    What is an "HTP"?
    Historical Technical Passport - that is the english translation for PTH : Passeport Technique Historique. This is an official certificate delivered by the FIA proving your car respect 100% (but seats/fire system and roll cage) of the period you recreate, according to the FIA homologation sheet.

    Please amend if needed.
    O-G 26 - Early911S 2407Current Stable:Porsche 911 L 1968 Light Ivory - Porsche 911 E 1973 Ruby Red - Porsche 924 Martini 1977 - VW T2 Devon White/Green 1978.Porsche 944 Turbo Graphite Metal 1986 - Porsche Panamera Sporturismo E-hybrid 2018

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