Sonauto expert needed

[NickP]

My 73S was originally sold through Sonauto in April 1973

[911MRP]

I understand in France it was required ( by motor vehicle regulators rather than importer sonauto?) to have the additional stamping on the flat raised area in the front luggage area used for vin number stamp. I’ve certainly seen this for model year 73 Carrera RS — usually above the vin — but not noticed if also done in TES that model year in France? If it was done for TES was this extra stamp also done there during other model years earlier than 73?

The reason for the extra plate in U.K. is clear it was (as explained above it was required to show conformity to a prevailing BSI seatbelt mounting point standards). I’ve not looked thoroughly but have occasionally noticed other marques in U.K. have plates with this BSAu48 number for example Land Rover

On the Australian example (although looks to to date from 74) also seems to be added to demonstrate being in compliance with various local regulations with the numbers —so presumably are documented regulations back in the day in Aus. I recall Hugh once telling me that Australia required local made seatbelts at one point so suppose one of the numbers might pertain to that? I assume rather similar to BSAu48 these regulations would’ve been National so apply to all other ( imported only?) marques/ models; not just Porsche. This begs the question what were the specific regulations for the things marks plate being added in Switzerland, Belgium, France ? Is there some documentary evidence (like the link to U.K. BSAu48) that clearly explains exactly why they had to add the extra plates /marks? Knowing they should be present is one thing for authenticity, but knowing why and what they actually signify in regulation terms is more interesting.

Some of Dave’s examples have information that might appear to be a regulators requirement to show whilst others appear to be very simple identifiers — local to importer serial reference?
The production and vin are already unique to chassis so once car lids
open vin visible so curious what seems to be a simple local serial number would add.

Steve

[911 SWTARGA]

A link for different Sonauto rear emblem
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...hlight=sonauto
And a picture of my 911 T Targa Sonauto's origin

[HughH]

Steve raised the minefield of Design rules and, at the risk of shoving Brett's thread well off course, I can give you an example from my Australian delivered 73E (Completed late June / early July 1973)

The Australian design rules (ADR's) had been around in a formal sense since the 1960's but as far as I am aware the necessity for a manufacturer to list all of the design rules the car complied with (and if they did not comply they could not be sold or registered as a new car) on a plate on each car probably only started in about calendar year 1973. I am not aware of the plate on earlier cars and I think that it was not even on MY 73 cars that were made before 1973 - at least I have not any records of one with such a plate.

I have taken the following information from an historical ADR website (you still have to have your cars comply with the age appropriate ADR's hence the records are available) there is a PDF of the actual rule attached to each one and if anyone is interested in how detailed and complex they are they can be located here

While there were undoubtedly some safety aspect involved there is no doubt that a major reason for the ADR's was a non tariff protection of the Australian motor vehicle manufacturing industry (which was basically American owned anyway but was seen as important for employment as well as an essential capacity for defense reasons). Thus having a multitude of highly detailed rules (that regularly changed) for a very small market was a great way to keep the "foreign cars" out of the country especially when added to very high tariff levels.

Here is my plate (note that it did not even have the PORSCHE name on it or vin number etc unlike later ones such as the one Dave posted)



The Second Edition Australian Design Rules (ADRs) are national standards for vehicles that first came into effect on 1 January 1969 as endorsed by the then Australian Transport Advisory Council (ATAC). The ATAC recommended the Second Edition ADRs to the Commonwealth, State and Territory Governments for vehicles being supplied to the Australian market. The Second Edition ADRs only applied to vehicles manufactured from 1 January 1969 onwards and were selectively applied by each state and territory

The Act requires all road vehicles, whether they are newly manufactured in Australia or are imported as new or second hand vehicles, to comply with the relevant ADRs at the time of manufacture and supply to the Australian market. When a road vehicle is first used on Australian roads the relevant state or territory government's legislation generally requires that it continue to comply with the relevant ADRs as at the time of manufacture.

This is the summary of each of the ones on my plate (note for some reason 4, 5a, 7 and 20 are embossed in a different font at the top out of order like they were an afterthought)

ADR 1—Reversing Lamps 1 Jan 1972

ADR 2—Side Door Latches and Hinges 1 Jan 1971
ADR 3—Seats and Seat Anchorages 1 Jan 1971
ADR 4—Seatbelts 1 Jan 1969
ADR 5a —Anchorages for Seatbelts 1 Jan 1969
ADR 6—Direction Indicators 1 Jan 1973
ADR 7—Hydraulic Brake Hoses 1 Jan 1970
ADR 8 —Safety Glass 1 July 1971
ADR 10b—Steering Columns 1 Jan 1973
ADR 11—Internal Sun Visors 1 Jan 1972
ADR 12 —Glare Reduction In Field Of View 1 Jan 1973
ADR 14—Rear Vision Mirrors 1 Jan 1972
ADR 15—Demisting Of Windscreens 1 Jan 1971
ADR 16—Windscreen Wipers And Washers 1 Jan 1973
ADR 18—Location And Visibility Of Instruments 1 Jan 1973
ADR 20—Safety Rims 1 July 1970
ADR 21—Instrument Panels 1 Jan 1973
ADR 22—Head Restraints 1 Jan 1972
ADR 24—Tyre Selection 1 Jan 1973
ADR 25—Anti-Theft Locks 1 Jan 1972
ADR 26—Vehicle Engine Emission 1 Jan 1972

On the Australian example (although looks to to date from 74) also seems to be added to demonstrate being in compliance with various local regulations with the numbers —so presumably are documented regulations back in the day in Aus. I recall Hugh once telling me that Australia required local made seatbelts at one point so suppose one of the numbers might pertain to that? I assume rather similar to BSAu48 these regulations would’ve been National so apply to all other ( imported only?) marques/ models; not just Porsche. This begs the question what were the specific regulations for the things marks plate being added in Switzerland, Belgium, France ? Is there some documentary evidence (like the link to U.K. BSAu48) that clearly explains exactly why they had to add the extra plates /marks? Knowing they should be present is one thing for authenticity, but knowing why and what they actually signify in regulation terms is more interesting.

Steve

[Brett Johnson]

Let me try to get back on track. Hugh's information is the type I'm looking for. I have documented the stickers used on 1968-1973 US-spec. 911/912s. This is what we put together for Amag and what I'm looking for for other tags located on cars -- with photos for publication:

AMAG I.D. Plates/Stickers

All newly manufactured Porsche models imported to Switzerland during 1951-2008 were handled by the swiss importer Amag. Prior to distribution to dealers all cars were cataloged with a paper record referred to as a Wagenkarte and a plate or decal affixed to the car.

On the 1965 and 1966 cars an aluminum I.D. plate with was generally mounted on the rear perimeter engine shroud to the left of the fan. For 1967 through 1969 they were located on the rear latch panel on the left side. On the plates listed above the words AMAG Lauf No. (AMAG Running Number) preceded a four-digit number issued sequentially, which originally commenced in 1951 with 1001.

By early 1970 the aluminum tag was replaced by a rectangular, orange paper sticker with the AMAG logo and L No followed again by four numbers in black. This was affixed to one of the shock towers in the luggage area up front. These did not survive as well as the earlier plates. In addition to the sticker on the shock tower, one was also located on the underside of the turn signal switch housing along with one in the service book.

The Wagenkarte contains most of the information contained on the Porsche Kardex and included the dealer that received the car prior to sale. Even though Amag was no longer the sole importer after 2008, Wagenkarte copies for 1965-1973 swiss-imported Porsches can be obtained by car owners.

[911MRP]

For for the U.K. to the best for my knowledge the only specific attached to the car was the “bsau48” plate. AFN or more technically correct Porsche Cars Great Britain ( the wholesale wholesale consession was spilt form retail arm with Aldington as well as Ferry Porsche, Brandski plus others on the PCGB Board) maintained a large paper ledger that tracked the order. It lived on a desk on London Road Isleworth. Each customer order ) row of ledger) was updated as what was initially indexed on Komm Nr ( confirmed order) progressed. That komm Number obviously preceded Production number which in turn eventually got vin Number. Finally things like date of receipt at islwworth and date of registration/ licence wiplate got added to columns in the book. Since no tag serial is attached on the car but instead got written on an old ledger it is not what Brett is looking for. Fortunately I have a copy of the original entry for my RS chronicling status October 72 to delivery early 73 which from an “authenticity” point of view is a very useful reassuring documents to me as owner when histories of so many cars are patchy. I do understand it is not an authenticity “ feature” in the sense of being an additional label affixed on the car like Amag etc. Owners of earlier RHD via AFN might confirm that there were no tags beyond the BS AU 48 as I’m less familiar with cars before 72/3. I don’t recall seeing the BS AU 48 before the early 70s presumably coinciding with the 71 publication (in image in my earlier post). Not sure if there was an BSAU48 plate in U.K. corresponding to the earlier 65 date of regulation in image.

[911MRP]

Back to Sonauto — an example from www. Not mine don’t know car so can’t vouch for authenticity. Not suggesting it isn’t pukka but hard to be sure from just a photo especially where the factory paint has been removed


On face example is a first series French RS from early calendar 1973 ... gleaned not just from RS 911360xxxx but also implied on the SC -F. SC was unique to RS in 73 F series — was similar additional stamp also added in 73 for F series TES in France ( or limited to RS)?
Closer inspection suggests the vin and the extras were stamped with different tool (maybe at different time). Superficially similar at first glance but closer inspection shows 9s are different ( the closed loop different shape of g also the different end point of that same g lower loop) as as are other comparable digits and detail of star when zoomed in — was this done at factory or locally in France ? Why was it even required ?

Is there someone from France or knowledge of Sonauto to provide input to similar level to the others countries like Switzerland Australia etc ?

I’m no expert on Sonauto just putting this here to get input.

Steve

[Brett Johnson]

Here's a Sonauto tag on a 1968 911L rear lid.

[300090]

Here's a Sonauto tag on a 1968 911L rear lid.

Same tag on the 1964 300090.
I think the rivets are not original.
Philippe

[911MRP]

Question for owners of British market 911 before 1972 model year. Coinciding with the second date of seatbelt mounting standard ( attached) for the British market 911 all I’ve seen here had a “BSAU48” plate above the normal plate



However not sure that I’ve seen a BSAU48 tag of this (or another type) used before model year 72. Appearing around beginning 72 model year makes sense given the second of the two standards date more or less coincided with 911 model 72 date.



Has anyone got any information about if it is a feature in earlier British market RHD cars related to the 1965 regulation. Or better still photo of such a plate fitted before October 71 in British delivered (or maybe some Commonwealth markets that may have used BSI seatbelt anchorage standard in 911)?

Steve