Tires for Long Hoods?

[aztecair]

OK Fellows,

The 'Panorama' just ran a long op-ed article that was basically an endorsement for the Pirelli CN-36 as THE tire for vintage (I mean anything before '74) 911's.

I am finally getting my 72'S back on the road, and looking for a set of tires, my tire shop is eagerly $$$ awaiting my choice. I am running a pretty much stock-as-a-rock 1972 911S with all the factory sway bars, Koni's etc. and looking for somewhere to go with tires....

When I drove the car daily (and raced some) back in the 80's-90's, the last preferred tire of style at the time was FULDA - forget those nowadays...

We all know the original 911 suspension was designed around the legendary Michelin 'X' tire, and drove fine enough with that tire back in the day, but you haven't lived until you are sailing down the freeway doing about 90, at night, in the rain, and realize that those tire tires had actually left the road and you were hydroplaning to the effect that turning the steering wheel, however slightly, had no effect on the direction of the car whatsoever!! A bit on the exciting, to say the least....

Then came the Pirelli P7 - nice tire, short lived for a street car. Really, too soft, great for the track, but they only lasted 10K mile or so.... We did some math and determined that it cost more to run P7's per mile than it cost to put fuel in the car! (gas was a lot cheaper in those days). The poor man's P7 was a tire called 'Gatorbacks' (Goodyear/Goodrich/Firestone?), a low profile tire like the P7, but also short lived, I burned 'em off in 10,000 miles too, and the speedo reading was off, and the car really wasn't meant for a low profile tire anyway, in my opinion.

So....... Whats in vogue now? I am creating a true masterpiece resto on this thing, but I still want to drive it, and I mean fast, with maybe a bit of rally or track stuff - so the Repro tires are definitely out - I want to enjoy the fine high speed and deep low speed handling of this car, so what would be a compromise tire other than the CN36? or maybe the CN36 is the answer?

Enthusiasts and fanatics, please speak to me!

Regards,

Stu

[raspritz]

To answer your question, for cars such as yours the CN36 is indeed "in vogue". On my '69, which originally came with Pirelli's, they look correct and they drive just fine at 90 MPH on the interstate. But you want an one-size-fits-all tire, for the street, track, and rallying, and there simply is no such thing. Figure out what is your main use and go with that. For street and the occasional PCA TSD rally, the CN36 is probably the best. For vintage racing, the Hoosier Vintage Speedster is excellent. For a real rally, I have absolutely no clue.

[JKW]

I just ran the Copperstate 1000 (really 1200) with my '70 coupe using the Pirelli P6000 tires in 185/70-15 size on 6" wheels. They performed superbly at all speeds and conditions with great grip and steering and braking feel and no noise. I recommend them for real world driving.

I use the Avons on my 356 and have no issues with them, but don't consider them an all around tire.

[uptheorg]

OP objected to tires that "burn off" in 10,000 miles, so the Avon's prolly won't do -- I get about 4,000-5,000 miles on mine before swapping them out. I don't mind because I only drive about 2500 miles per year and the tires are perfect for what I like to do which is tear around the twisties. And they look correct as well. So I like them, but they are an expensive proposition.

[frederik]

I have the P6000 in 195/65 on 6" wheels and they work very well. But they don't look as good as the CN36. I'll replace them eventually with a set of CN36 in 185/70.

[Arne]

My first career out of high school was in tires. Starting in 1976 I sold and serviced tires through 1999. So I saw all these tires back in the day, and worked on pretty much all of them. Yes, I became a bit of a tire geek, and still am today.

If you are interested in staying with the stock size (185/70VR15), there are a few choices. As Rich noted above, none are going to be great for all uses. My take on the current offerings:

Vredstein Sprint - A thoroughly adequate tire for back road touring. So-so at best in the wet. Not particularly good for serious hot shoe driving or on the track. Vintage sizes, but bland, generic appearance. Reports are that they do last longer than most others.

Michelin XWX - Basically the exact same tire it was 50 years ago, other than possible compound updates. Probably better for more spirited use than the Vreds, but only a little. The hydroplaning problem still exists. Appearance is the best of the crop, as other than a bit of required new sidewall text it is exactly the same as it always was. I recall these tires lasting about 15k miles back in the day, and expect that today's version is probably no different.

Pirelli CN36 - Seems to be the go-to compromise tire at this time. Better in wet conditions than the Michelin, and better grip in other conditions as well. Pirelli has updated both the compound and the carcass construction while staying more or less true to the vintage appearance. The tread design is the same as it was, the sidewall styling is a bit different, especially noticeable (to me, anyway) in the Pirelli logo (today's logo is straight, rather than curved to follow the sidewall radius). I'd expect no more than 15k out of these as well, since they use a rather grippy modern compound.

Avon CR6ZZ - Essentially steetable race tires. Killer grip and response in the dry, and they will get by in the wet if you don't push too hard and haven't worn them down too far. Vintage appearance, although not truly period appearance. As Jim noted above, probably good for 5k miles at best.

There's one other one that intrigues me, that is the Dunlop Sport Classic. Rights to the Dunlop name are owned by various companies in various markets. In Europe and ostensibly in North America, Dunlop is a Goodyear brand. In most of Asia it is a Sumitomo brand. The Sport Classic (released around 2017) made in Europe by Goodyear looks much like the old Goodyear Eagle NCT and GT tires, and actually similar to the Fulda Y-2000 from back in the day (which was also a Goodyear brand). Anecdotal reviews from Europe are generally good, often equalling or surpassing the Pirelli CN36 in both wet and dry. Appearance is not period correct, the tread design comes from the late 70s and early 80s. The sidewall is appropriately simple and unadorned, with a rather large Dunlop logo in the correct Dunlop font. The big issue with these is that they are not easily available in North America. Both Coker and Universal added them to their website catalog about a year ago, but always show them as on backorder. When pressed, they admit that they have never had any yet, and have no ETA. Since getting a container of a few hundred tires from Europe is not all that difficult, I have to wonder if Sumitomo is throwing up legal obstacles to getting these into the country.

So lacking the ability to get the Dunlops here in the states, my car's next set will probably be the Pirellis as the best option for an all-around tire.

[PrairieDriver]

Further to Arne's comment about availability of the Dunlop Sport Classic, I have a single tire (to replace my spare) on backorder from Coker. I placed the order with a live person (not an Internet order), who indicated the tire was in stock and would ship within 48 hours. After around 4 days, I received an "on backorder" email which included no indication of a ship date. This all occurred within the last 10 days.

HH

[stout]

Coming up on this decision again myself, as my Avons are aging out. Arne's thoughts sum things up nicely for the choices most "go to," and largely mirror my experience with all of these tires. To those mentioned here, I'll add just two more:

P6000 N-spec is back on Tire Rack in all the sizes that matter for these cars (185/70, 195/65, and 215/60) and is the only choice if you want a modern summer tire that looks "right enough" for some (I'll include myself in this category, even if I prefer the XWX and CR6ZZ as far more period…though I find the CN36 to "F-150" in some applications and really wonderful in others). While the tread pattern and sidewalls are more modern than our cars, they somehow don't look bad to me—and the "bulge" on the 195/65R15 on a 15x6 is sublime if you're into that sort of thing.

BFG Radial T/A is another to consider if 205/60 or 215/60 is your size; period sidewalls, black or white letters, 1970s tread, and (I hear) improved compounds/construction as BFG is owned by Michelin. I hear good things from a friend with a hot-rod 912 who knows his stuff about 911s and 914s too.

[Arne]

I agree with Pete that the Pirelli P-6000 is a valid choice, if you can stand the ugly tread design. I personally can't, even on modern cars. It's just too ugly.

A 195/65-15 is a nice fit on a 6" Fuchs, if you can find one you like. I have Sumitomos in that size on my car right now. (Prior owner installed them just prior to my getting the car.) I'm just not all that excited about any of the tires available in that size either.

If you are OK with shorter tires, the 205/60-15 BFG is probably worth a look. I prefer the period look of the taller sidewall myself, but not everyone does.

[NickP]

I’ve had the CN 36’s on my 73S for the last 3 years now. 185/70/15’s on 6 and 7’s. My car lives an easier life than it did 10+ years ago but it still finds its way through some San Diego’s lovely back country roads now and again. I’ve been very happy with these tires. They look right and I’d describe their overall performance as light and lively. To my rear end they help make the car feel and drive like it should it most every condition. I’ll buy em’ again when its time.