kommissionsnummer

[_gonbau]

I have a document and I have found some other where it is named "kommissionsnummer". Is this number an invoice number or similar? Is there any post referring to it?
******disclaimer for the connoisseurs and thought... In part I think that this data that is provided here and in other of my posts is a "critical" part to the inadequate eyes... My thought is that making this type of data visible TO all WORLD we will put an end to counterfeits by people "who have knowledge" above others... If we all know, we will have to face better counterfeits... But I think that by making them perfect... They will end up being found more easily ... The expert who used to base a forgery on this type of numbers will now have it more complicated, I guess. I understand that it could be a way to detect them but at this point where there have been very high-level people collaborating with inappropriate things... I think, this type of knowledge, in these types of forums... They are necessary. Is my thought!
And what I want to show here is what I have learned from the internet, from my island... Information that is there. Which already exists publicly. Hence wanting to gather it... So that there are no eyes that see more than others....

[davep]

I believe it is more like an order number and is generally related to a distributor. If you could send me the documents, then I could help you understand them better.

[haul]

„Kommision“
the term has a different meaning in commercial language. In the case of a sale on commission or a commission transaction, a middleman is assigned to handle the transaction while the actual seller remains in the background. The actual seller will not receive the sale price minus a fee until the sale is complete.

The word comes from the Middle Latin commissio "order", "summons" and the Latin commissio "union" or "connection".

[_gonbau]

the documents are already published in early! One is my own car and another is
from a 1973 that I enclose. This image is from the Kardex post (if it bothers the owner to tell me and I delete it)
In the lower corner you can see kommi nr. So I think that number would be "the same" that I would see in my document. but starting from this I attach the following information ... speaking with the file they tell me that the "field" Kommisionummer do not know where it comes from. (in the case of my document)
They told me: "It is not in our Archiv Data."
I tried to send you the information by MP Davep but when attaching photos it crashes. If you provide me with your email for future communications, I would appreciate it!


and based on this a question arises. When someone browses "the archive" for a car from year 72. Can someone provide the "template / example" of what they would be looking at? Is it the construction book? Is it a sheet like the one shown?

[_gonbau]

thanks for the clear explanation. Do you know if there is any relationship between the heandelr-code numbers and the Kommision nr.?

[Troos]

At Porsche today each build is assigned a Commission Number after it has been spec'd out and the order received from the dealer. The cars retain the commission number and are often referred by that number even after being assigned a VIN.
Tom

[HughH]

I agree there are (at least) three separate series of numbers that refer to an individual car and they relate to different parts of the production cycle

The Kommision nr is the initial one and it relates to the order from the dealer for the car. It seems to be a sequential number and does not seem to distinguish between type of car (engine / body shell 911v 912 etc)

The next is the production number and is generated when the order in the Komm Nr is sent to the production area - this number is coded to show the model year; body type (coupe v targa) and who was to make it (Porsche or Karmann) but NOT the engine spec

The final one is the Vin number which is attached towards the end of the process and does allow the identification of model year, car type (911 v 912), body type (coupe v targa) and engine spec.

I do not have enough examples to determine what patterns / codes may exist in Komm numbers or even IF the whole Komm number is shown in the documents like the one you have posted or the extracts given in COA type documents (I dont believe the whole number is shown - at least in your case)

From the examples I have I think the Komm nr is in two parts - the first showing the originating distributor that the order came from and the rest possibly some sort of sequential number (but if so I think that may have changed between 1972 MY and 1973MY)

It would appear that this number sequence may have started at the start of the LWB period where lots of administrative changes were made behind the scenes including the introduction of the separate "production number" stamped and written onto the shell.

The earliest "Komms nr's" that i have recorded are for 1970 MY cars - in part that is because I cant see that they are recorded on kardexes and typically before 1970 you see kardexes not build sheets.
I have a couple of examples where there is both a kardex and build sheet and the lowest number komm nr that I have recorded is 090065 in the middle of the 1970 MY.

IF that was a sequential number starting near zero it would have to have been in place for at least the whole of the 912/911 period from inception or longer (and that may have been the case)

Then I have half a dozen examples up to the 72 year where yours is 530104 - ie over 440,000 numbers higher. BUT the next highest before that is in 1971 and is 220003
There were nowhere near that number of cars built during that period and I suspect nowhere near that number of orders for anything.

Also I have 3 1970 911S's with vins only a couple of hundred numbers apart but Komm Nrs 090065, 130112 and 200002 which suggests that IF sequential they are all from different series and also I cant see any pattern that would (say) represent an order for an S in those numbers.

One thing that is clear though is the Komm Nr is NOT just the 090065 or whatever the six digit number is.

All of the ones I have seen (except the one printed on your COA type document) have a number or code before the six digit number signifying the handler from where the order originated. There are either a number like 100 for werks, or SG for Spain or in the one you posted UF forVolkswagen Of America Inc. Western Region Culver City

Finally the 6 digit numbers I have for the 1973 MY cars are back in the 100000 - 200000 range so there may have been a reset of the sequential numbers OR the numbers may not be fully sequential and a code is in there that I do not have enough examples of to determine.

[_gonbau]

....

All of the ones I have seen (except the one printed on your COA type document) have a number or code before the six digit number signifying the handler from where the order originated. There are either a number like 100 for werks, or SG for Spain or in the one you posted UF forVolkswagen Of America Inc. Western Region Culver City

Finally the 6 digit numbers I have for the 1973 MY cars are back in the 100000 - 200000 range so there may have been a reset of the sequential numbers OR the numbers may not be fully sequential and a code is in there that I do not have enough examples of to determine.

Huhhg. It is a pleasure to read to you, to see that there is a message from you and to know that you must prepare a coffee to enjoy reading. I'm going to skip a few things and go directly to ask about the Spanish S / T, then I'll add more questions as I understand the message. You say and I have verified in the file of the Spanish "repsol" S / T, that it appears SG / Spanish market / but, until now I had understood that the vehicle was not supplied to Spain but that it was picked up at the factory or something similar ? Am I confused on this? And if this were the case, and the vehicle is delivered in Germany ... Why would the SG identification refer to Spain come out? ... Thank you very much to all


SG as you say, means the point where the order originates! Was he confused then? And is SG correct in the Repsol vehicle since it was ordered from a dealer in Spain even though it was later delivered in Germany? other than that, were those acronyms so generic? SG, in the case of Spain, did you collect all the dealerships in Spain?

[davep]

Hugh is quite correct in his description. The Komm-nr is a combination of the "ZH" or distributor code and the 6 digit number. I have a page of consecutive VIN's and the Komm-nr range is a bit odd; the first two digits are between 38 and 48 with the majority in the 4x's, then the last 4 digits are in the 0001 to 1050 range. So it appears there is some coding included. The distributors were coded as 1xx for Germany and a two letter code elsewhere. If a T was appended, that meant it was a Tourist delivery; but from what I see, this means it was ordered through the distributor from a foreigner instead of being ordered from a local dealer/distributor and delivered overseas. So, SG indicates that it was ordered from the local distributor in Spain but may have been delivered elsewhere; there was an M option for factory delivery.

[HughH]

Yes as Dave says the "country code" is (almost always) where the car is ordered from and where it will end up. In road cars, as opposed to the rally car ST you have posted above, it would also inform what country specific options would need to be installed to comply with the rules in that country. It does not mean that it was automatically delivered there. As Dave says there were various options on delivery including factory pick up and pick up at other places for "tourist delivery".

Also on the bottom left corner of that document there is a Versandart code. this is the code for how it is to be delivered to the customer. It looks like a 4 but it is hard to read
below that it says Fahrzeung Konserviert Export or "vehicle preserved for export"

As far as I know the Versandart codes are:
0 car waxed – stock Germany sold
1 car unwaxed – stock Germany sold

2 car waxed – pickup
3 car unwaxed – pickup

4 car waxed export shipping
5 car unwaxed – delivered to importer ex factory
6 car unwaxed -tourist delivery outside factory
7 car waxed -tourist delivery outside factory
8 car not waxed – air freight
9 reserved
This is slightly inconsistent with the story that "Eladio Doncel collected the cars personally in Stuttgart and, fitted with the customs plates (428-Z-9869 and 428-Z-9743), took them to Spain"
But not if he collected them already fitted with customs plates as he knew he could not legally import them to Spain and then trucked them home rather than drove them which is implied in the above statement from the sales pitch when the car was sold.