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Thread: taxes for motor displacement in germany in the 70s

  1. #1

    taxes for motor displacement in germany in the 70s

    At tax levels, when you bought a car in Germany, the displacement of Cm3 .... Did they matter when paying taxes? Did you pay the same in taxes for a porsche with a normal engine as with an upgraded engine? Did you pay more for more cylinder capacity the vehicle had?

  2. #2
    Senior Member haul's Avatar
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    in short:

    Mostly the cars are registered as vintage/historic cars, to be identified by a special H letter in the license plate.
    The tax is equal for all cars with 191.- € per anno.
    Modifications are allowed from the „how was the factory delivery“ within a 10 year development scale, if it is for the safety or technical updating the system. To install a larger capacity engine mostly does not imply and loss of the „historic status“.

    The insurance is of course different and quoted by the value of the car.
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    70 650 astralred silver triumph bonneville
    65 912 slate gray "erwin"
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by haul View Post
    in short:

    Mostly the cars are registered as vintage/historic cars, to be identified by a special H letter in the license plate.
    The tax is equal for all cars with 191.- € per anno.
    Modifications are allowed from the „how was the factory delivery“ within a 10 year development scale, if it is for the safety or technical updating the system. To install a larger capacity engine mostly does not imply and loss of the „historic status“.

    The insurance is of course different and quoted by the value of the car.

    thank you very much Haul for your answer and although it helps me to clarify other concepts I think my question was misunderstood. I wanted to ask... in 1970/72 what taxes did you have to pay for the purchase of a Porsche? And if it had one engine or another, did the amount of those taxes change?
    Regarding what you answer me...
    here in spain we have historical vehicles with h in their registration that do not pay taxes but also cars like mine, which retain their registration and for being over 25 years old do not pay taxes either!!
    In theory, here in Spain, a vehicle can only be H if it is 100% original, except for consumables such as filters, etc... obviously that is not true and "money" rules...
    Regarding insurance... I am extremely green in this field with respect to Spain... I know that many use insurance at the agreed value but I have no idea...

  4. #4
    Senior Member haul's Avatar
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    ok, understood
    yes you paid taxes according to your engine size and still do so…only the rates sure have changed and also according to which emmision class your car is belonging.

    Until the middle of 1985, a uniform tax rate of 14.40 DM per 100 ccm cubic capacity applied to all passenger cars. From July 1, 1985, three tax rates were applied: a reduced rate of 13.20 DM for vehicles recognized as low-emission or conditionally low-emission and increased rates of 18.80 or 21.60 DM, depending on the date of first registration, for non-emission-reduced vehicles Vehicles. In addition, temporary tax exemptions were granted depending on engine capacity (from 1.4 liters) and the time when the passenger car was recognized as low in emissions….

    it has changed since then further
    59 750 pre unit triton
    63 650 gray silver bikinitub triumph thunderbird
    70 650 astralred silver triumph bonneville
    65 912 slate gray "erwin"
    73 914 ravennagreen "ferdl"
    haul archive erwin_loves_polo

  5. #5
    Thanks Haul! For me, all the information you provide is very helpful... From this island I cannot ask any other way... So, in relation to my vehicle. We understand that the vehicle left the factory on January 1, it is normal, right? I think this because a person told us that perhaps Dieter used some move to put it on day 1 (it had something to do with taxes) and perhaps that is due to the fact that in the construction sheet of my car the cylinder capacity is 2311? Is there any record of any other porsche that has a similar error? I could think that being that cylinder capacity... Less taxes would be paid for my car? And in that case... Were there any legislative tax changes between January 1, 71 and January 1, 72? Complicated questions xD

  6. #6
    Senior Member haul's Avatar
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    I checked again the data for tax changing for cars, and there seems no hint for 71/72 changes.
    Of course cars registered in spain are tax free in germany, but then taxed in spain…

    Concerning 1st of january…this is in general a working free festive day in germany since years.
    no shops or state offices are open…its new years day! of course tax invoices and insurance company days are in the eange of 01.01 upt to 31.12 of the years.

    2341 should be correct for the 2.4L engine…
    59 750 pre unit triton
    63 650 gray silver bikinitub triumph thunderbird
    70 650 astralred silver triumph bonneville
    65 912 slate gray "erwin"
    73 914 ravennagreen "ferdl"
    haul archive erwin_loves_polo

  7. #7
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _gonbau View Post
    due to the fact that in the construction sheet of my car the cylinder capacity is 2311?
    Baudett

    As Haul says the capacity of the 2.4 engine is generally considered to be 2341. I think the use of the 2311 number is a simple typo rather than anything else. As you posted elsewhere there are documents showing BOTH 2311 as "fiscal" displacement and 2341 as "effective" displacement for the same engine. I dont know what the difference is but NORMALLY the effective 2341 is quoted in the documentation. (the difference may be the extra volume in the combustion chamber counted in effective displacement versus the swept volume by the pistons being the "fiscal displacement" but that is just a guess on my part)

    I have seen similar mistakes in lots of "official documents" including kardexes and other so called source data material. There are always mistakes made in any set of documents and while this may be a case of typing of a 1 instead of a 4 (very easy to do especially as they are next to each other on a keyboard) I think it is more likely to be copying from the wrong line in the factory documentation given it has both measures.

    On other Porsche's I have seen engine numbers wrong , gearbox numbers wrong (missing one digit for example) and plenty of other errors on kardexes let alone when you get hand written documents or more recent documents like COA's with data sourced from old material by people who are not familiar with the older cars

    However given that the 2311 was on a recent document produced by Porsche Spain and a similar one you posted from Porsche in France shows the "correct" 2341 I think it is a simple typo mistake in the document - most likely sourced from the same material in the archiv that you got separately. Those recent "Certificates of Authenticity" are full of errors - recall the one you have from the factory archiv for your car that (wrongly) says it is a sporto as well as having it as 2311.
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

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  8. #8
    hello, i just wanted to clarify that the document that names 2311 comes from the porsche archive itself in germany, not spain... what makes me have more respect for it is that I asked the director about that information, he told me he was going to look at it and he never told me said nothing about it. I must understand then that the worst document I have seen has been put to my disposal by the Porsche file itself, having that document more errors than any other previous document on my vehicle. as you say porsche France had communicated us the data correctly... so, I can understand an error in the document I can understand two... what I cannot understand is a document full of errors (a document that is supposed to be the "most official" ) in which the displacement is wrong, it is named sporto etc... from my point of view an error would be the confusion that you explained to me when talking about the colors that changed in 72 or something like that... that for me would be a error but I present it in my document, from my point of view it touches certain limits that I do not like a hair. No one has ever taken legal action against Porsche for issuing this type of OFFICIAL but false documents at the same time? many greetings ... I will reread the message now at home and possibly I will comment on something else
    +
    thanks for the explanation between prosecutor and real... Another question that I dispel thanks to your knowledge and the forum! I'm clearing doubts!

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    I have another document of this type, on another car issued by Porsche Spain. In Spanish, this is in German. I know you know, but just to make it clear.

    the name of the emitted file is this:
    FzgInfoClassic_91123005761610391924


    SPAIN:
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    Last edited by _gonbau; 01-17-2022 at 03:41 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by haul View Post
    I checked again the data for tax changing for cars, and there seems no hint for 71/72 changes.
    Of course cars registered in spain are tax free in germany, but then taxed in spain…

    Concerning 1st of january…this is in general a working free festive day in germany since years.
    no shops or state offices are open…its new years day! of course tax invoices and insurance company days are in the eange of 01.01 upt to 31.12 of the years.

    2341 should be correct for the 2.4L engine…

    quite important to me what you say Haul! I've had some arguments with my father about it! At first I thought it was a holiday but then I thought it wasn't, that it started to be a holiday after a certain year that I don't remember. My father has always told me that it is strange that I put January 1 because it is a holiday... The last time I talked about this with someone they told him about the tax issue, maybe they moved it to January 1 because in 71 there would be others taxes or something similar. Maybe it has something to do with that, maybe it doesn't... But of course, I haven't seen another vehicle dated January 1 yet, that's for me... It means something, I guess....
    +
    Also keep in mind in the field of tax at that time, you could not mix Spain and the Canary Islands. Same country, yes, but the Canary Islands had the tax exemption for Free Ports... hence so many beautiful cars on these islands....

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