KFZ Brief Nr.

[_gonbau]

Hello, I would like to know in which documents this number is present. It was provided to me by a private person and not by Porsche itself, my numberrr.
I note for example on this vehicle the KFZ Brief Nr. Is it only present in that type of documents or in what documents can this number be present?
did kfz exist before making this document in *1081*?

The KFZ of this vehicle is 45 150 076
The KFZ of my vehicle is 45 149 834
Does the KFZ vary around the dealer that deals? Varies per year? Does it vary by sales volume?

[tomster]

The blank document of a Kraftfahrzeugbrief (= title of a car) is issued by the Kraftfahrtbundesamt which is the top authority in Germany for registering cars. Back in those days I guess the numbers were simply issued in an incremental way.
As soon as the car is actually produced the manufacturer (here: Porsche) is requesting such a blank document. They fill in the respective car data, put a stamp & signature on it and confirm that the car is in accordance with general homologation.
After that the Kraftfahrzeugbrief is passed on to the new car owner or selling dealer along with the car.
Until then there is no date on the document. This date is filled in by the respective regional registration office on the date of first registration (see red circles) of the car.


So the number is not depending on the selling dealer!
Though it could be that when Porsche manufactured 10 cars per day and they requested 10 documents of Kraftfahrzeugbrief they were subsequently given 10 documents with all numbers in sequence.

[_gonbau]

Thank you very much for being so clear in the explanation... Based on it then. How would it be possible for my vehicle 576 to have a KFZ so close to 1081? There is a difference of 242 numbers between one kfz and another. According to the documentation this vehicle, the 1081 was delivered on 31.12.71 One day before the delivery of my vehicle. I must understand that the KFZ Brief existed before delivery to the dealer but there is so much difference between VIN 576 and 1081. Is it normal to find these KFZs so close or so far away depending on how you look?

[tomster]

Ahh, sorry my bad. I forgot to mention that only cars being delivered to/first registered in Germany will have a Kraftfahrzeugbrief!

Car #0576 has production #1023122.
Car #1081 has production #1024080.
So the cars are only 958 body units apart. Assuming that Porsche built ~10-12.000 cars per year it is most likely that both cars have been produced within a ~4 weeks time period.
Since the Fahrzeugbrief #'s are only 242 digits apart I would say that at that exact time period 242 cars were sold in the German market and the remaining 716 cars were exported to other countries.
By the way, both cars have been delivered through dealer Hahn in Fellbach though car #1081 is a bit special...

As much as I can read from the 2nd document this car has initially been built for Porsche themselves:
"ausgeliefert an: interne Abteilung in Hause Porsche" = "delivered to: internal department at Porsche"
"ST bedeutet: T-Ausführung, also einfach mit S-Motor, der seinerzeit speziell für Sporteinsätze gebaut wurde" = "ST meaning: T-model, simply with S-engine, which has been built specially for sports purposes back then".
Here is more documentation on car #1081 (all in German):
Porsche 911 ST 1081 History_latest_200dpi.pdf

P.S.
What I noticed though: Car #0576 is - as of data on your CoA - said to be a Sportomatic.
Quite strange though that its engine serial then is #6320900. According to the V-pages 1972 Sportomatics should have engine #'s running as #6329XXX
Also Sportomatics should have engine type 911/63. Yours has 911/53 = manual shift.
Seems like -once again - a CoA issued by Porsche is not worth the paper it is written on...
But I assume you already noticed this by yourself.

[_gonbau]

I realized that thanks to the people of this forum. This paper comes from another forum, and what you comment as an error. Other less experienced people laughed at me because they assumed that my car was a Sporto... In short, People for everything. The assessment you make about the kfzz is helpful. Reelere the publication and surely raise some questions! But for now what you comment is quite interesting!... What date, in the case of 1081 should be understood as the first? the date of 12/12/71? Between that date and 1/1/72, 242 were sold in Germany...In one day? And being festive? Many greetings!
+
the information attached ... is of extreme beauty. Thanks a lot...

[tomster]

In my posted attachment on #1081 it reads "Produktionsjahr 1971" (= produced in 1971) and in your 2nd document ist reads "Das Fahrzeug wurde vor dem 31.12.1971 produziert" (= car has been produced before Dec, 31 '71).
But no exact build date. Anyway, this would be my logical order:

#0576
~Nov-Dec/1971 production date + Kraftfahrzeugbrief has been issued
01.01.1972 billing date
19.01.1972 delivery to Hahn, Fellbach
25.01.1972 delivered to first owner

#1081
~Dec/1971 production date + Kraftfahrzeugbrief has been issued -> Porsche internal department
03.02.1972 Claus Utz traded in his 911 "S" for DM 25.002.75 at his local dealer Max Moritz, Reutlingen presumably because he wanted an ST
01.03.1972 billing date Porsche + car leaving the factory (-> Hahn, Fellbach)
27.03.1972 Claus Utz signed the official order at Max Moritz, Reutlingen
27.03.1972 car is sold by Hahn & delivered to dealer Max Moritz, Reutlingen
29.03.1972 Claus Utz took the car in possession
16.05.1972 Claus Utz traded in his VW Variant for DM 2.000 downpayment
22.06.1972 Claus Utz traded in his Porsche 914/4 for DM 7.000 downpayment
31.12.1972 (!) billing date to Claus Utz
The latter presumably happened because Max Moritz did his annual inventory and found out that Claus Utz overpaid his ST by DM 146,72.

[_gonbau]

Thanks Tomster I have been rereading the message this afternoon which I appreciate! For me, understanding the information from so far away is sometimes complicated!
Regarding the relationship you say of the vehicles in my case. The date 1/1/72 is the (I quote porsche verbatim) The Factory Delivery Date to the Porsche Hahn Fellbach center. So according to what I have it would be the following:
#0576
~Nov-Dec/1971 production date + Kraftfahrzeugbrief has been issued
01.01.1972 billing date
***01.01.1972 delivery to Hahn, Fellbach
25.01.1972 delivered to first owner

Where could I know the billing date? And what would be the delivery date... The 19th as Porsche France says or the 25th as "a private investigator" says


According to this image that I show. I must understand that the date of delivery to Hahn appears on the construction sheet of my vehicle (the document that Porsche issued from its archive) and not the date of the construction of the car? Or did Porsche Spain miscommunicate this information?
and I feel the offtopic maybe this topic should go to the post of my car. I do not want to "undermine" the KFZ

[_gonbau]

https://porschecarshistory.com/wp-co...PW/2014/06.pdf

9112301566

KFZ Brief: 45.775.329

With the data that I am obtaining from the year 72 are the KFZ of my vehicle and that of Max. In these a "close correlation" can be seen but adding the new KFZ...of the Blatzheim vehicle from the year 72 also gives a difference in the KFZ of 625,253. Therefore, I must understand that between the dates of vehicles like mine from January to month 7, 625,253 vehicles were sold in Germany? I would also like to ask if the vehicles that went directly to export were created a KFZ

But if my vehicle was delivered at the beginning of January and Max's on 1/3/72 (with little difference between their kfz) how is it possible that 4 months later (Blatz vehicle) there is so much difference between the KFZ?
There should be more volume of KfZ between the vehicles of Max and mine according to the data that I appreciate...?

I also want to ask. When the Porsche sold the vehicle, did it keep a copy of the KFZ?

sensitive documents that an investigator told me the KFZ number, but could not show me the Porsche.... Something complicated to understand I guess.

I have to say that I have never seen a photo of a copy of a KFZ or similar... something that surprises me because at first the information was more accessible and with some contacts I guess you could get everything from your vehicle. But despite the fact that some vehicles show a large dossier of original documents... the original KFZ is always observed and never (that I have seen) a copy, hence the question... Did Porsche have a copy of the KFZ? And if so... can someone show a "copy" of that Porsche document or are they "lost"? If that copy existed?

[70SATMan]

The KFZ is not unique to Porsche. It was for ALL registered cars in W. Germ. At the time if I understand correctly. All makes, all models. Trying to figure out a timeline between KFZ Numbers doesn’t make sense to me. The original forms were probably pre printed with sequential numbers and the Marques might have had predelivered stacks just waiting to be filled out as production rolled out. No telling how often they were receiving batches of blank forms. The numbering has more to do with W. German tracking of registered cars than Porsche production.

[uai]

The KFZ is not unique to Porsche. It was for ALL registered cars in W. Germ. At the time if I understand correctly. All makes, all models. Trying to figure out a timeline between KFZ Numbers doesn’t make sense to me. The original forms were probably pre printed with sequential numbers and the Marques might have had predelivered stacks just waiting to be filled out as production rolled out. No telling how often they were receiving batches of blank forms. The numbering has more to do with W. German tracking of registered cars than Porsche production.

Exactly.....