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Thread: KFZ Brief Nr.

  1. #11
    https://www.bgbl.de/xaver/bgbl/media...s1209_8110.pdf

    Thanks for the information, I found this document where it is explained how to fill out the document

  2. #12
    at 1972 1081 st, who delivered the KFZ Brief? I note that according to the invoice, the vehicle is invoiced on 27/3/72.
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    received on March 28 according to seal
    but the documentation is signed on 29/3/72...Two days after the invoice from the Hahn dealer. Who should have delivered the KFZ Brief to this vehicle? Hahn? Max?
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    The phrase that accompanies this last image in the document is: Max Moritz acceptance certificate, confirmed by SR Utz on March 29, 1972. On March 29, the vehicle is delivered to the client and the kfz-Brief is delivered there. ?

  3. #13
    Senior Member haul's Avatar
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    the KFZ Brief - the registration papers - are not mentioned above!
    normally the dealer would do this work and register the car in your behalf, for a certain add-on price...but it is also possible, that you just buy the car, load it on a trailer, get it to your hometown and register it there for yourself. or you just do it yourself...
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  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by haul View Post
    the KFZ Brief - the registration papers - are not mentioned above!
    normally the dealer would do this work and register the car in your behalf, for a certain add-on price...but it is also possible, that you just buy the car, load it on a trailer, get it to your hometown and register it there for yourself. or you just do it yourself...
    The kfz sheet is not shown, but it is on the max bill, not on the mostarda, but within the same document where I got this from, there it is, the kfz! I arrive with that kfz at max since it was already stated on the invoice? I guess so! The documents stated that the hahn stored the car in its warehouses until delivery to max. If it was stored in a warehouse, would it have the kfz registered? I suppose they are difficult questions, but swear. He has been the only one who has been able to provide me with a kfz. I wonder where this came from... if it were that the kfz gave it to him, max... how would it be possible that Jurguen had that data? I see it as more likely that it was Hahn who gave him a number and kept those records in a Porsche database etc... I think

  5. #15
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    To make it maybe even more complicated: back in those days Hahn in Fellbach was the Porsche wholesaler for the greater Stuttgart area. Smaller dealers like MaxMoritz or Strähle had to buy at Hahn, so there was one invoice from Hahn to the dealer and another one from to dealer to the customer. On both invoices you could find the fee for the KFZ Brief. You show us the invoice from Hahn to MaxMoritz dated 27th of March 1972. This invoice says nothing about the date of the delivery of the car from Porsche to Hahn. In any case there should be a second invoice from MaxMoritz to Utz or his company Zech Pelze (furs) - see handwritten addition on the Hahn invoice ( not unusual the the real customer is shown there). So either Porsche or Hahn got the Brief from the authorities. It was not unusual that new cars were delivered at first to Hahn as wholesaler and than to the dealer where the customer picked it up. Usually the local dealer registered the car than for the customer or the customer did it himself. The local authorities completed the Brief with name and address of the owner (could be a company too) the numbers of the license plate and stamped it with the local city seal. The Brief was the official document of the ownership, so even today - if you lease a car you never will see the Brief because it stays at the bank or the lessor. So if the car was only stored for a few days at Hahn the Brief was not used, the car not registered, because if they would have done, the car would have been a „used“ second hand car when delivered to the dealer because of the registration. In the second document, the Übernahme-Bescheinigung (acceptance certificate) the customer only confirmed that the car and some additional parts were handed out in good condition. It says nothing about the official ownership in the Brief (Utz or his company (for tax reasons) or the registration of the car. Maybe Utz picked up the car with a blank Brief to register it himself.

  6. #16
    If you look at the KFZ and the dates, due to the closeness of the dates to the KFZ in both cars, can you understand that the KFZ of 1081 is signed around January/February?
    the text says the following
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    If my vehicle has a KFZ close to 1081 and my vehicle was delivered in January... 1081 is delivered according to documents on the 1st of month 3. A bit far away. But if we read the image, I could understand those tighter dates but... Would you sign a KFZ if you still don't have the vehicle? I don't know if you understand what I mean but between my KFZ and the one for 1081, as was said in some post behind, there are 242 KFZ, so looking at the certificate, etc. I read the following and ask:
    What does the following sentence meanas Fahrzeug wurde vor dem 31.12.71
    When talking about delivery to the Porsche department in the certificate.
    The vehicle, when delivered to the Porsche department, on those dates, could the KFZ have been signed? and hence the dates close to my vehicle that was delivered on 1.1.72 or 1/19/72
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    Anyway, why was this vehicle sent to the internal department? Is that where the "light" panels were installed?
    if it were true that the kfz 1081 was signed around january.....
    Was it then a second-hand car despite having been paid for as new because the kfz was signed before the "delivery"? I am saying this in reference to the above theory....

  7. #17
    When a car was sent to the internal department or "delivered to the factory"... was a KFZ signed or was the vehicle blank? For example, a press car.... What kfz would it have? Under what name would it be registered... Porsche?

  8. #18
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    Since the KFZB is a registration document, then any factory car (like the E#-ed cars) should have such a KFZB with the plate # assigned to it. It should be registered to Porsche.
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  9. #19
    I understand the kfz shown above by tomster, the kfz brief existed before the owner was the owner of the vehicle? there is an acceptance date "general operating authorization 8.20.71, one month and a little (I think) before the owner's signature. Would this say that the brief existed before the owner and that the owner only complemented it? or does it mean another stuff?

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    these data "pre-recorded in black" in an orderly manner....
    Could the KFZ be owned by the Porsche, until the moment the owner of the vehicle becomes the owner and gives it a license plate? I mean... the Brief, the Porsche had it with those data filled in 911-t etc... and the owner added the date of October 4 and added the license plate...?
    The Porsche from my thought, had all the kfz-brief of the numbered vehicles without assigned registration ... could this be?
    Observing the data of the kfz that I show in this last photo, is it possible that there were kfz briefs (lots) filled in for the 911T, another lot for the 911S? Are the data generic until the kfz reaches the owner? Or is there a part of the document that includes vin etc? that identifies each kfzBrief with a vehicle?
    I think what was said in post 9 is correct... I think, it took me a while to think about it but "hey, better late than never"
    except that ... it is not Max who gives kfz brief or any distributor, but the factory itself ... that is what I understand by observing the dates ... I don't know if it can be correct.

    +

    In the 911 TR, in its brief, where the model appears in the previous photo, would it appear as TR?
    +
    kfz 1970 911E "39 400590" sold 116 Mahag Munchen oct 1969
    kfz 1972 911S "45 149834" sold 115 Hahn 25 Jan 1972 "porsche 1 Jan 1972"*refer date Porsche France 19/1/72**18
    kfz 1972 911S "45 150076" sold 115 Hahn 31 Dec 1971
    kfz 1972 911"S" "45 775329" sold 113 Lintorf 1 July 1972https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...this-car/page2
    Kfz 1973 911RS "49 614787" sold 114 Glockër 17 april 1973
    kfz 1975 911 2.7 "52 050855" sold 116 Mahag Munchen 21 febr 1975 "porsche 3 febr 1975"*18
    *
    If the owner of 1081 took possession of the vehicle on March 27/29, 1972, the number of their KFZ (license plate) nearby (in this case, mine) would indicate that the vehicle has had the KFZ number since November 31, 1971. Is the factory position correct? Would this vehicle, 1081, have an inventory number?
    And in that case, to what name, if the vehicle belongs to the factory on 12/31/71 does the vehicle belong at that time? Could it be understood as a "second hand" car as mentioned above?
    the versandart of 1081 should be 5 correct?Ex-factory

    *si el Kfz de 1081 estuviese escrito desde el 31 de diciembre del 71 (cuando le pertenecio a fabrica) porque pudiese ser que tuviese un numero de Kfz mas alto que el de mi vehiculo "entregado el 1 de enero del 72"?
    Numero de produccion alto para la fecha de entrega 31/12/71+engine
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    According to the KFZ number of 1081, if the KFZ is given by the dealer there would be a fairly large difference between the dates and the KFZ numbers since it was delivered on 1/3/72, if we understand the delivery date of 1081 as 12/31/ 71 dates are more relatable. The Kfz was given by the Porsche.
    0769 n-kfz?
    +

    another car NO PORSCHE for example 10/1/72
    KFZ 44
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    PF
    +
    Another 1970 NO PORSCHE
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    It matches the dates of the 1970 911 shown above. What is useful, as I think, to temporarily locate a vehicle. In the Porsche case, were different batches given to each manufacturer, or did "the government" supply KFZ on demand?
    Does more or less 300,000 sales volume coincide in total in Germany in the year 71 for example? I don't know such large figures for what you ask. Could a figure similar to 300,000 have been possible?
    Last edited by _gonbau; 07-11-2023 at 05:32 AM.

  10. #20
    Regarding the KFZB, I would like to clarify some concepts. Is the sheet pre-filled by Porsche (the numbering)?Who manufactures this document? The organization mentioned earlier provided them to Porsche... in batches?For example, in a hypothetical scenario, at what point is this sheet manufactured?
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    When is the vehicle produced? Is the KFZbrief sheet generated while the vehicle is being produced, or do you already have this sheet with the KFZbrief numbering (without data) before manufacturing the vehicle? For example, in the homologation of the T/R, were there KFZbrief sheets for them where there was a 'differentiation'? Over what period were these vehicles produced? It would be interesting to compare KFZbriefs for those vehicles over time to see if they follow any 'sequence,' even if they were separated by months. I need to delve deeper into these vehicles.Should the KFZ sheet indicate, for example, if the vehicle weighs less than the standard 911? Were there special KFZ sheets for some vehicles?

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