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Thread: Roll Bar Supports

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by 911MRP View Post
    Porsche was not the be-all end-all for roll bars and cages. Some vintage photos of racers from that era in 911 suggest maybe Porsche were not as quick as some others to cotton on to the benefits of both safety / adding rigidity?
    Attachment 608308

    There were pioneering specialists in the field. Matter are well known as supplier of cages to Porsche (however not sure when Matter first made roll bars and roll cages?)

    Other companies were available both to factory teams and to individual racers. One notable example in this field being ALEYBARS Limited. They under leadership of John Aley were a pioneering specialist in the field and were a popular fitment; active long before the devices became mandatory — a British company they were earliest to spot the need for such things and fill the demand:

    This is a bit of historical context on the parent company Safety Devices website:
    http://www.safetydevices.com/about-us/history/

    An ALEYBARS brochure from the 70s is in the history link. The brochure says it started 1964 so had idea even before 911 drivers were creating demand —see claim in the leaflet of being earliesff if maker un Europe (and acknowledgements* by credible organisation who would know firsthand that Aley was the earliest maker of roll bars and roll cages).

    Leaflet shows some details of the variants that time — including the aluminium version that was once deemed acceptable! This brochure in link is for historical interest and sone things clearly outmoded by current standards. Having worked as an advisor to the global leadership I know the FiA are constantly updating the rules and regulations regarding safety equipment:
    Attachment 608291
    Motor Racing magazine publications often featured adverts from ALEYBARS. This one featuring a Mini is evidently before UK decimalisation suggesting sixties?
    Attachment 608300
    An advert from spring of 1972:
    Attachment 608302
    This is a British 73 Carrera RS on a rally. I know it was fitted with an ALEYBARS manufactured cage. I suppose by then an off the shelf item for 911 application from this specialised cimpany given how prevalent 911 was in motorsport at that time.
    Attachment 608288

    I’d be surprised if ALEYBARS who had been going since 1964, hadn’t made rollbars/cages for 911 before in 1971 FiA mandated cages they were were becoming adopted in motorsport from latter half of sixtes. However compared to other marques/models used in motorsport Porsche 911 probably sold in low quantities.

    ALEYBARS Ltd were used by a number of factory teams eg BMC competitions Dept as well as smaller teams and no doubt privateers used them in the typical seen racing back then.

    Papers on file show my 73 RS was once fitted with a bolt-in ALEYBARS cage when it was owned by a racing driver who went on to win class at Le Mans. Being British company ALEYBARS of the day were certified by the Royal Automobile Club the FiA ASN in UK. Five decades ago the paperwork was provided in an envelope like this:
    Attachment 608293

    The certification was proof to scrutineers it was homologated by the RAC was recommended to be kept safe in case needed to be produced in continental European events:
    Attachment 608294

    The ONS certificate infomation posted by Claudius is interesting:
    Here the earliest paper about the Matter roll cage I found, issued 18. March 1971, provided by DMSB (Deutscher Motor Sport Bund).
    BR Claudius


    Is the precise 18 March 71 date evidence of when Matter first made a certified roll cage product for 911? With roll bars/cages becoming mandatory racing equipment around then and Porsche 911 being popular in motorsport I can see why Matter would jump
    in to developing and certifying them via German body ONS at that particular point. However the presence of Carrera model on that certificate with 1971 date is intriguing because the date on the certificate predates the existence of 73 Carrera RS — March 71 probably even predates the Carrera RS project being sanctioned by Porsche management or the model being named Carrera so hue dies that chronology fit? While there is no doubt a valid reason — maybe the certificates colourful bottom edge suggests recent print — the anachronism in content certainly caught my eye.

    Perhaps Matter were supplying earlier than 71 and this paperwork was just related to certification for new mandate but if Matter only supplying from around that date where were Porsche getting roll-bars/cages before? The work team were using Britax ( British) harness from UK in sixties so did source racing safety kit outside German makers.

    Back to the mounting. Interesting comment about completions regulations of 70s requiring bolt mounting this article from the well regarded Motor Sport ( see last full paragraph left column)
    Attachment 608301
    Also interesting to read author’s view on why aluminium roll over protection wasn’t successful.

    Steve

    *PS. For folks interested in history of innovation in motorsport this link has an obituary for John Aley who died several years ago.
    http://www.brdc.co.uk/Notice-of-Deat...ey-1930---2021
    As context, the BRDC is a club of racing drivers who must meet criteria of success to be invited to join and whom collectively own the Silverstone Racing Circuit. Members include past president Sir Jackie Stewart and the late Prof Sid Watkins who are both recognised internationally for making the sport safer so this acknowledgement by BRDC for John Aley’s contributions to safety (which no doubt saved lives of many motorsport participants) carries weight:
    John was something of a motor sport polymath. Racing driver, car club founder, race reporter, circuit manager, team manager, championship co-ordinator and car club chairman and president, he will be best remembered by a generation of racing and rally drivers for being the first person to manufacture roll bars for competition cars. Today it seems inconceivable that the use of roll over bars, let alone full roll cages, was not universal until 1971 when the FIA made them mandatory. Personal experience of being ejected from a rolling sports car during a test session at Snetterton had set John thinking along roll bar lines some seven years earlier in 1964 when he and Brian Wilkinson, who went on to found Safety Devices, produced the first Aley Bars.”
    Truth be told, I don't think I have the level of knowledge to respond to your message... Thank you for providing the documentation and taking the time to do so. I'll try to ask a few things, but given my limited knowledge in this area, all I can do is sit and read.
    If I remember correctly (someone correct me if I'm wrong), Matter was an official provider of bars for the 924/944 that were designed from around '71/'72, I believe. During those years, there was an official relationship between Matter and Porsche, so it would be "understandable" that before that relationship was formalized, there already existed a prior "friendship." It would be interesting to document that period as well as documenting the Matter bars and others.
    Regarding the manufacturing of the bars and their dates, I'm unaware of when Matter started manufacturing them, either for Porsche or another company. From my perspective, as an addendum to this information, I've thought that our Dieter Fend was acquainted with Matter (I think this due to some race results). Dieter was racing Porsches since the '70s, for example, and I understand that during that time, he might have equipped some type of roll cage in his Porsches as well. So, documenting between '70/'71 becomes even more interesting. Perhaps he made use of bars from his old vehicle? As far as I know, before our 2.4S, he had a Targa; for these vehicles, did any type of roll cage exist? I have to search for Targas in competitions, but I think there might be some documented photos. Perhaps he used those bars for his 2.4S with a sunroof? Would a Targa bar be compatible with a car having a sunroof?
    I'm unaware of other manufacturers; I've never paid attention to that information, so from now on, I'll widen my scope... Thank you for mentioning that brand, AleyBars. It'll be interesting to gather information about it!
    Thank you for the detail about 1964. It serves as a reference to see when the trend of roll cages roughly emerged. Regarding the distinction of aluminum, does anyone know why it wasn't 'liked'? From my point of view (total ignorance), aluminum ones would provide less weight. Why would one prefer the pure and tough metal? More rigidity?
    Another point, since you're showing John's brochure... Dieter used Minis in slaloms and sporting events, not sure if before Porsches or simultaneously. I think it was before; during that time, perhaps he also had bars in the Mini. Maybe he knew a vendor who made bars for both Minis and Porsches? Does anyone know any manufacturer with this in common?
    Given the two holes, should I understand that the bar was "unique"?
    I'm pretty sure I'll reread this information and add or ask some more questions regarding this post. Regarding the '73 photo you showed, is the uniform of the drivers, or is it a curved bar in the middle?
    Regarding your '73. When you say 'atornilladas,' can you be clearer because with the translation, I don't understand. Did it have a welded plate or simply bolted to the chassis, or was it screwed with a 'sandwich plate'?
    Regarding the detail of Carrera at Matter, I had noticed the Carrera detail, but not the impression and color detail (good catch).
    From what I understand from the paragraph of the document you showed... Let's say, in the early '70s, people welded, fixed to the chassis the cage (without being able to remove it later), while later they 'created' the method of 'removable'? So that leaves me a bit more confused, but I understand I need to research more. As I mentioned, thank you for taking the time to respond to this, and I have no doubt that in my response, I'll add some more questions... I hope I'm not being a nuisance with so many questions
    +
    john aley realizaba barras para mini fabricante Uk... tenia fend unas barras de mini de uno de sus antiguos coches y se las puso al porsche?
    Last edited by _gonbau; 12-14-2023 at 08:56 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by 68S_SK2 View Post
    That is supposed to be a craftsmanship error...
    But it indicates according the congruent measurements, that a Matter roll bar base was used as a drilling template.

    Concerning the sunroof: If I remember correct, the clearance is sufficient for the old style Matter roll bar to fit underneath a sunroof car, which is different to the now available roll bars.
    Matter used three 'holes' if I see correctly in the image shown in the Kremer post! The third hole is covered by the original plate, so did the bars use 'two screws'? Since these holes are present on both sides, I must understand that they were made intentionally... Having the measurement they have, it's even more puzzling from my point of view.
    +
    I found this image, it resembles my holes. What was there placed here?
    Are there 3 large holes or the one that looks like a solitary hole is not one? The little one excluded it but it would be interesting to know what it was for too.
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    1968
    https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...-harness/page3
    "That's also the configuration on my 68S FIA Group 3. A Britax Competition or 901 harness with the two shoulder straps going to the same anchor point as seen in the pic above.

    Here's a photo of the outer lower mount on my car, just ahead of the rool bar mounting point."

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    https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...h-race-details
    "I have managed to get in contact with the first owner! He still lives in Berlin and remembers the car. It was used to compete in slaloms (autocross), hill-climbs and circuit racing. As an amateur he drove the car to the events with competition wheels on the roof rack, competed all day and then drove back. Imagine being able to participate in a german touringcar race like that, those were the days!

    He said the car was prepared at the Porsche Sports Department with 10hp higher engine power, lowered chassis and stiffer set-up for racing. It is not known in detail what was done, but 10 extra hp sounds like it could be Sport-Kit I?

    It would be interesting to go to Berlin and visit the first owner, perhaps more can be remembered over a beer!"
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    the small hole for the screw that has the "trim" to cover the mounting points
    Last edited by _gonbau; 12-14-2023 at 05:13 AM.

  3. #23
    This would be the state that the area shows when removing the "original" welded Porsche plate? There is no trace left as seen in this photo? Is this the result of that work? If it is "that fine" I am interested in investigating the points that 68S_SK2 showed
    *that black paint. Does it come from being a new panel? If so, what I'm asking is irrelevant.
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  4. #24
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    I’m no expert and others might chime in. Some who contribute here being older than me raced in Europe when these roll cages were starting to appear so folks might remember what brand was being used in practice. Rather like the Edward Lewis Westover GP driving boots that were first to market so became the game in town I suspect ALEYBARS were a go to brand but their early to market position soon got watered down with new entrants. Hence ALEYBARS don’t now resonate on Porsche context as much as Matter brand to a slightly younger set of enthusiasts. Also maybe ALEYBARS were UK centric in the years before common market — the comment about not needing certificate in UK but advising one for Europe suggests lesser market penetrations.


    I did notice one of the companies who were listed in the magazine advert as ALEYBARS agent for were at time also a Porsche GB franchised dealer. In the same era.
    Could be a coincidence. I suspect Matter moved into the space to supply Porsche following the FiA mandate which gave a worthwhile market to invest in tooling etc. Established a supply arrangement and set up a deal helped by being German. Perhaps before that roll cage were more haphazard in both in usage and where/how got sourced. Could be wrong as don’t have evidence beyond the ONS certification being for 911 being at the appropriate time .

    Steve
    Last edited by 911MRP; 12-14-2023 at 07:32 AM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member 68S_SK2's Avatar
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    I checked my pictures again and I think I have to correct myself.
    The spots I marked green in my previous post were factory spot welding points.
    Here a bare metal picture of a1971S befor plate welding.
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    One more conclusion for me when checking the roll bar pictures: I found a couple of different roll bar types concerning diameter of the back leg, fixation position of the back leg.

    I checked the Kremer thread showing different roll bar typs too.

    Where did you see the 3 bold fixation pattern of the Kremer car?

    Claudius

  6. #26
    The owner says so and if you look closely, under the "original" plate is the third hole

    and thanks for the clarification! I had understood that but I have been looking for some images to have another reference and I couldn't find the angle I needed to see it. Thanks for giving me a clear "example" just as I needed it! I wasted a few hours yesterday and today... I remembered seeing photos of these places in this forum but I had a hard time finding any...
    https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...1&d=1701786410
    +
    What is clear to me from the photos we have seen (matter in one case and in the other I don't know but "original Porsche according to the post) is that in that same place some method was used that required a hole to anchor. Why was drilling required? If we understand that in those places there are no "plate" marks for fastening, rather 3 "simple" holes. They were simply screwed to the chassis as I have read in some other article? It seems correct to me for the early period, but for The year 72 perhaps a little more "unsafe"? We think that our car ran the 1972 Internationale Intercontinental, for the AVD I think I remember. Was this subject to the rules of the FIA or similar? What regulations did those types of rallies have?

  7. #27
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    NOS still in packaging not mine

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    Steve

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by 911MRP View Post
    NOS still in packaging not mine

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    Steve
    It occurred to me, although it doesn't help me much, with the appropriate measurements, I will try to design and print a plate identical to the original and I will try. I know that the screws with a separation of 5 centimeters will be correct to the measurement, the rest will not, but to try things...

    +

    What type of bar could this be?
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    Last edited by _gonbau; 12-14-2023 at 09:08 AM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member 68S_SK2's Avatar
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    Porsche parts books present 3 different part numbers for roll bars, and 2 different for the base plates:

    901 803 021 21 roll bar up to including MY 1968 without S/R, base plate 901 803 231 21/22
    901 803 015 21 roll bar MY 1969 up to including MY 1971 without S/R, base plate 901 803 231 21/22
    901 803 015 22 roll bar starting MY 1972 without S/R, new base plate 901 803 232 21/22

    Claudius

  10. #30
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    Another plate in situ. Think factory but looks like the area has been tidied painted etc so can’t be certain. Person who sent it years ago said it was an RS

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    Steve

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