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Thread: Hmmmmmmm

  1. #11

    Europe

    Hi Guys.

    First of all, as to Greg's question about the wheel / tire combo:

    Early deep 6" Fuchs all the way around.

    205 / 60 - 15 Dunlops in the front.

    215 / 60 - 15 Dunlops in the rear.

    The reason for the rear 215s is because I intend to put R 7" Fuchs in the rear, like on a 911R. I wanted to buy one set of tires, so I put that rubber on the 6" wheel until I get the R-Wheels. The 215s will level out nicely with the 205s once the 7s are on. Planning a bit ahead. It actually gives it a slight muscle car angle at the moment.

    Second of all, as to Ian's question about American dollars, Euro dollars and their relationship to Carlo's 72S. (Now, my 72S) Yes, Carlo's price was $17,000. He had it on and off the market for quite a while, with many interested parties. I think his price was higher at one time. He didn't really want to sell it. After owning several early cars, this was his ideal car...a 72S with a factory RS engine. He even built a web-site for it.

    But though beautiful, rust free and all there, the car was a little rough around the edges. His desire was to eventually address its needs and realize all of its potential. But like me, he enjoyed all of its history and didn't mind that its "honesty" made it fun to drive and not so perfect that one should worry too much about it. At least...until he got around to making it that perfect.

    Well life got in the way...not in the way of a great life...just in the way of his relationship to the 72S. My good fortune was that when I was searching the internet for either a 72 or a 73S, I found a shadow of an ad he ran for the car. By "shadow" I mean that it was a copy of an ad he HAD run, but that he was NO LONGER running. It was still floating around in the never-ever-ending land of the world wide web. (Be careful what you put there!) Although this COPY of his ad was laying dormant on some server somewhere, I found it and like Dr. Frankenstein, revived it for an audience of one - me.

    Carlo was surprised when I called, since his car wasn't currently listed, nor had it been for many months. So I drove my rough around the edges, but also great 73 911E over and we shared our enthusiasm for both cars, as well as the marquee, as well as the Registry and the R-Gruppe. I liked him and his POV on Porsche immediately. Since my E was the 27th to the last E Targa built in 73, our cars were on the factory floor within a year of one another - kindred cars. And his family drove up just in time to see the rare Silver with Red & Black Leather Interior, A/C Targa, with Through the Grill Lights. He and his family liked my car, and I really liked his, with its factory delivered Through the Grills, its deep 6" Fuchs, its H1 Headlights, and that R-Gruppe favorite 210 bhp 2.7 engine with LSD tranny.

    You'd be surprised at how a non-matching engine (though real RS) can devalue a car to the collectors over here. Most of the early mechanics I know could care less for their own cars...as long as it's factory and period correct. But it matters a lot to many, and I think that's great. I actually have a lot of respect for a matching car. My E had matching #s. The 57 Speedster that I co-own with a buddy is original, matching #s.

    But to be honest with you, in the case of Carlo's car...I reaped the benefit of all of those who didn't buy it because of what it wasn't. I bought it because of exactly what it WAS...and what it could be. I love the lines on the 72, I love the chrome, I love the oil port, and I love the 72S engine. But I love the RS engine more. Like Carlo, I felt like I was getting the best of both worlds.

    I do know that after I bought the car, more than a few people expressed regrets that they didn't pull the trigger and buy it. But you know...every car seems to find its proper home. Sometimes they take a pretty circuitous route to get there, but they do seem to price themselves to the right owner, when price is an issue. It was for me. Like my old fixer-upper house in the Hollywood hills (I am the Hillbilly in the hood) I wanted a 72S and loved real RS performance. However, I could afford neither when I started looking. How ironic that I would find one that I could not only afford, but one that had elements of both cars.

    The other irony is that the $17,000 price tag probably scared some buyers off...they figured something had to be "wrong" with it. Carlo was simply trying to price it fairly, taking all of its needs into consideration. Because I understood what a cool car it was, and had similar ideas about its potential, Carlo really worked with me on the price and my timeline to make the deal and the trade work for both of us. And I thank him for that.

    Yes, if the car was perfect or near it, even though it isn't a matching #s car, it may have brought as much as $25K over here as well. But cars in general are cheaper here. Though they are getting harder to find and are worth more and more here, there are still a lot of rust free cars to choose from, in almost all conditions and price ranges. One of the guys who almost bought Carlo's car ended up buying a real RS car. Another guy ended up with a near perfect, matching 72S, to the tune of $25,000. An excellent, loaded 73S Sunroof Coupe recently sold in the area for $23,500. One of the R-Gruppe guys is selling a really nice, fast 1970 911T with a 2.4S engine, houndstooth interior, and about $30K invested for $13,500. And a matching #s, 2 owner (the last since 1976), California, rust free, 1970 911E Coupe with 68,000 original miles (it's been on blocks for 15 years) just sold with a straight body and very nice interior for $3,000. Yeah...it's not running...but it was 3 grand!
    So the real question to the early Porsche enthusiast in the UK is...maybe you should move over to the "other" west side. It's cheaper here...and the driving conditions are pretty much...purrrrrrfect.

    I mean no offense by that. I LOVE the UK and have travelled over to film festivals there many times...Leeds, London, Manchester, Liverpool, Scotland & Northen Ireland. Next time I'm over, I hope that it's for an early Porsche event. I can't imagine a more beautiful place to drive an early 911 than Europe. Let me know next time the cars get together on the left side of the road, will ya? I would love to join you all sometime.


    Cain
    ________________

    1972 911S Coupe
    R-Gruppe # 212

  2. #12
    Hey Cain, Thanks for sharing. It's great to hear a cars history and the people involved in making that history. There's a guy on the Pelican board that has a 72' T or S (I don't remember which) It's in Irish Green. (not Paul's PWDs) that he was able to trace history on and even get pictures from some 20 years back. A previous owner used to race it. Anyway, a great car with a great history.
    Bobby
    71' Olive 2.2E Targa / Early S #491

    I've always considered the glass to be half full...that is until I reached middle age and realized that it is actually half empty.

  3. #13
    Cain,

    I'm in exactly the same position, re wheels/tires, except I just picked up the 7R wheels for the rear. Been looking at tire combos. I have 205/50 all around at present and leaning toward 225/50 on the back. The car has a low, aggressive stance. The 215/60 & 205/60 combo looks more period correct. Do you have a picture from the side?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Greg DuPertuis

    1972 911T
    Leesburg, VA

  4. #14
    Greg, your who I was refering to in my previous post. I couldn't remember if your car started out as an S or T but now I remember. Going a little bit away from the sleeper image I see.
    Bobby
    71' Olive 2.2E Targa / Early S #491

    I've always considered the glass to be half full...that is until I reached middle age and realized that it is actually half empty.

  5. #15
    Bobby, yes just a little less the sleeper. I'm going to keep all exterior as is, so it'll still have all the chrome and, of course, the 911T on the lid.
    Greg DuPertuis

    1972 911T
    Leesburg, VA

  6. #16

    Side-View 72S

    Hey Greg.

    I plum forgot about your long-ago request for a side view of the 72S and the tire/wheel configuration.

    Yeah, I went with a more period look.

    Here's the closest I have to a side-angled photo, though not purely so. Can't step out to the garage and shoot it because it's under the knife.

    I've got Tony @ TLG dialing it in for the next big R-Gruppe event - Monterey in May.

    (Or I should say that I'm dialing it in to the degree that I can afford. Remember...I'm the hillbilly of the gRuppe.)

    Hope this helps. Love your car. And to everyone else who thought this thread was dead...

    Hi Ya'll!

    Cain
    _______________

    1972 911S Coupe
    1957 Speedster (Super)
    R-Gruppe # 212
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  7. #17
    Fine threads never die, just linger endlessly...

    Cain, thanks for the pic. Looks like I'm going 205/60 all around - Tirerack's price on AVS Intermediates was too good to ignore, but they were out of 215/60. I have a pair of deep 6's at Al Reeds to be refinished. I hope to have it all together by the end of Feb.
    Greg DuPertuis

    1972 911T
    Leesburg, VA

  8. #18
    Bobby, in Denver, Colorado Greg's car stopped being a sleeper the day the mad doctor took it into Grady Clay's shop...only the ignorant didn't know what it was...you know, guys driving Corvettes and Camaros of the era...the PCA folks knew... Ahhh, we old farts did have our fun times, yeah we did...
    Paul D. Early S Registry #8 - Cyclops Minister of West Coast Affairs
    "Now, to put a water-cooled engine in the rear and to have the radiator in the front, that's not very intelligent." -Ferry Porsche (PANO, Oct. 1973)

  9. #19

    Walk away upset

    Hi Jeff,
    I am surprised at some of the registry guys here advising you that you may have made a mistake by letting the car go, and that good 911S's go for more money than what the guy was willing to sell for. That's not the point here. In my humble opinion, walking away was the best thing you could have done.

    When you are dealing with a person who is trying to sell you a car without allowing you a professional inspection, someone who has deliberatley misrepresented the condition of the car to you, and who is trying to hold you to a price which was agreed to based upon false info, you have more of a right to be upset than he does.
    He's wasted your valuable time.

    It's happened to me a few times. I am now much less willing to give a seller the benefit of the doubt by risking my time and money until I feel confident in the seller's honesty, the car has been inspected, or someone I know and trust has seen the car, the guy has emailed me good closeup pic's of the car and has shown me alot of documentation.

    Like you, I have found myself more than I care to admit driving 2-3 hours each way in order to see a "mint" or "good" condition early 911 only to find a car that was a mess, or much less than the condition described. This is part of the game for many people who have helped make the phrase "Buyer Beware" so infamous. For them, they have nothing to lose by misrepresenting the car. A smart seller will show the car to as many people as possible simply in order to maximize the chances of finding a buyer. Sleazy sellers are the same. All they are required to do is spend 10 minutes on the phone with you (on your dime), step out of their houses and spend 10 minutes with you showing you the car in order to see if you are a real buyer and either stupid enough, or desaparate enough to buy despite its condition. I say stupid becuase unless you have owned an early 911 or have done your homework well, you have no idea how much a engine rebuild costs, how much MFI costs to rebuild, how much it costs simply to reseal a leaking engine, how much heat exhangers costs, etc... In their minds, by misrepresenting the car to you, they assume that since you are already there, you may still be willing to negotiate a price with them that will be acceptable, despite the issues. Futhermore the pressure is on you to budge on either price or expectations since you have already invested time and money in the car just to see it. Worst case scenario for the seller, they walk back into the house ad watch TV and you drop off your rental car at the airport and fly home. They don't owe you anything.

    After having experienced what you did a few times, I started to ask myself on the long disappointing drive(s) home, why I was such a fool to waste my time and money. Since then, I have made a point of clearly telling the seller that am I willing to make an offer of X $$$, but subject to the car being in the exact condition described. I have then told the seller, in a kind and respectful manner, that I will VERY UPSET in the seller if I find that I have taken the time and effort to see the car only to see that he has misrepresented the car to me. Therefore, it is in both of our interests that he be straight with me. At that point I ask him to describe the car with me again in greater detail, so both have us have no misunderstandings. It is amazing what you find that they have "overlooked" the first time.

    On this ote, I would also say that I believe it is the buyer's responsibility to ask very specific questions. There are more than a few owners out there that know very little about their car, and therefore can't be expected to say much unless you you ask them (it's kind of like the old Reagan Iran Contra conundrum - either he was senile and forgot, he was ignorant and didn't know anything. Either way, you lose). Therefore, an unkowledgable Porsche seller can't be expected to be reliable when asking about originality, or if the car has Weber's or Solex's or MFI etc... when they don't even know how many pints of oil the car takes. This in itself should also give you warning as to whether the car has been well taken care of. Guys like this normally don't let the engine warm up to operating speed before pushing the engine, or check the oil levels and change fluids religiously, etc... They may also tell you that they have thousands of dollars in receipts showing how well they have taken care of the car. In these cases, the receipts reveal that a "Porsche" specialty shop has grossly overcharged them for a standard or a replacement part, and the large amount of money overstates the actual work done on the car, and more importantly, what is still necessary to do. $1,000 for pads and SS brake lines is not the same as "new" or "fresh" brakes. Just something extra to think about.
    Make sure your money is well spent. But at a minimum, don't waste your time on a long trip until the car has been given a favorable inspection by a real Porsche mechanic. In fact, before paying for an inspection, you should also make sure to agree upon a "tentative" selling price. If the car checks out, and after the inspection you cannot agree upon a price with the seller, you have wasted your money.

    Just my humble opinion from a guy who has been there and been jerked around.

  10. #20
    Garth, I don't think anybody was critical of Jeff for walking away...
    It's just that when a deal sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
    Paul D. Early S Registry #8 - Cyclops Minister of West Coast Affairs
    "Now, to put a water-cooled engine in the rear and to have the radiator in the front, that's not very intelligent." -Ferry Porsche (PANO, Oct. 1973)

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