Old VIN's - Ownership History?

[tabs52]

I am lucky with my car, I have the orginal dealer service record card..that states date of Purchase, engine number, vin number, dealer, mileage on car at sale, orginal owners and dates of dealer service. Plus service records from one of the owners, and CA registration cards for most of it's history.

Now this is OT, but relates to the discussion. I bought a post Civil War era US military rifle from a family member of the US Soldier who owned the rifle. When I agreed to buy it, I didn't know his name just that he served from 1866 to 1895 and was cited for bravery. The rifle shows heavy frontier use, and would be considered to be a $200 wall hanger. I asked his name upon purchase, went home and looked him up online.

His name was Otto Voit and looking up his name I found out he was in Company H 7th Cavarly.... then I looked him up in Medal of Honor Winners as it was the only medal for bravery the USA had until WW1. There he was..the kicker is that he won the Medal of Honor at the Battle of the Little Bighorn...aka Custers Last Stand. Voit joined the 7th in 1866 was at the Repblican River campaign, Battle of Wa****a, Yellowstone Expedition, Black Hills Expedition, Battle of Little Big Horn, Canyon Creek (Nez Pearce), White Clay Creek (Wounded Knee) and finially in AZ in the 1890's chasing outlaw Apaches. Passing away in 1906.

Since it is a rifle and not a carbine, it is unlikely that he used the rifle at BLB. But where did he get the rifle??? Through research I have found that 6 of that type of rifle was used in theReno/Benteen Defensive Fght where he won the medal, but none of that caliber catridges were found in the CO H area. Also Voit was most likely one of the 14 troopers of Co H that accompanied Captains Benteen and Godfrey to the Custer massacre site, they being the first white men to survey the field.

Since every cartridge a gun fires is like a fingerprint. The firing pin and extractor marks are unique to a gun. There has been extensive archaeological digs recovering cartrideges at the BLB. They to date have conclusively determined that 15 guns were present at the battle using forensic techniques. 10 of the guns are in public museums and 5 are in private hands. Three of those guns have come up for auction..the first was a military carbine in Indian hands that sold for $250,000.00, Second was a Winchester Model 1866 which sold for a World Record at the time for a Winchester $687,000.00 and third a another military carbine for $97,000.00.

Now believe me I have contacted the people who did the forensic testing and they won't do it anymore. The real reason is that they don't want their Historical research to be turned into big dollars. So they won't do it under any circumstances. The NPS Historian wants pictures of the rifle to put in Otto Voits file.

IF I COULD PROVE the rifle was at the Battle of the Little Big Horn being used or in the poesssion of Medal of Honor Winner...it would be the only known gun to be used by a specfic person at the BLB and a MH winner at that. What would it be worth in light of what the other rifles sold for. Also a campaign writing desk and small S&W revolver belonging to Custer sold for $198,000.00 at auction...I talked to the consignor. Would $500,000.00 be enough? $1,000,000.00??? Who knows????

Now this is where Historical research becomes important.

[gruen911]

Tabs,
Interesting story about your gun. However, in your case it seems that your bend toward historical value is only important for resale value.
The same point could be made for some old sports cars and early 911's, but I believe most of the people (at least me anyway) who own early 911's look at historical value only as an added benefit, whereas the intrinsic value is the pleasure of actually driving the car and its originality. Do you actually fire your rifle on occassion purely for enjoyment reasons?

[letsrollbabe]

Chris:

Constantine's last name is Petros. I think he still lives in in Santa Rosa area. The last cel phone number I had for him was 707-321-2630. Good luck.

[tabs52]

I shoot my old guns from time to time...as a matter of fact thats about all I do shoot. Modern guns are just stamped out pieces of steel and plastic, with no soul. I thought about shooting the Voit rifle, but it's condition is pretty rough and I would want something in a bit better condition to shoot.

Money is surely a motivating factor but not the only reason. It is fascinating to find out new things, and to be able to hold something that was part of American History. That is the real reason why people value these objects so highly. Because there are far better ways to make a return on your money.

[ckissick]

Help me out here, Tabs. I though no white man survived the battle of Little Big Horn. Voit's MH would have had to be postumous, but he died in 1906. What's the story? Talk about OT.

[tabs52]

The 7th Cavarly was composed of about 600 men plus civilian scouts, mule skinners, a reporter, and about 40 or so Crow Indian Scouts. The regiment was broken into 11 companies of about 45 men troopers each plus noncommisioned officers etc.

On the mornining of June 25, 1876 Custer and his Indian Scouts went to the top of a high ridge. The Indian scouts said there was a big village in the distance. Custer said, "I don't see sh!t." Custer then proceeded in the direction of the Little Bighorn River. After about 10 miles or so Custer directed Captain Benteen to take companies H and I off to the left and search for indians. Custer had one company guarding the mule train with the supplies, brining up the rear. When Custer reached the LBR he directed Major Reno to cross the river and attack the Indian village with 3 companies about 120 men. Custer said "I will support you." sic Reno. Reno crossed the river and proceeded up the valley where he ran into about 1200 + Indian warriors. He halted and formed a skirmish line.

Custer meanwhile proceeded with 5 companies of about 240 men up the river on the oposite side from the indian village. Custer and several of his officers sat on top of a high ridge and could see that Reno was in retreat. At this point he dismissed his indian scouts. He then broke his command up again and 3 companies headed down Medicine Coulee to cross the river. When they reached the river they were confronted with light resistance. They then retraced their route back to the ridge, where indian resistance was becoming stiffer. There Lt Calhoun set up a skirmish line with one company to keep the indians at bay, with 2 in reserve. Meanwhile Custer and 2 comapnies proceeded further up the river on the ridges. The guess is that he was trying to locate where the women and children were so he could capture them. Meanwhile 2000 indians were converging on him, gradually closing in on him. Once the Calhoun position was overwhelmed it was just a mele of every man for himself kinda like ants swarming over an ant hill. It was over in about half an hour to 45 minutes. There really was no last stand.

Meanwhile Reno and his 3 companies skirmish line was being flanked. Reno then retreated into a stand of woods with the river to his back, but again where was Custer to support him, the indians were surrounding him. He gave the order to mount and make a dash back across the river. But at that moment a bullet hit his indian scout in the head splattering brains all over Reno. So not all the troopers got the order to retreat. The ones that did ran like he!! with the indians weaving and dodging among the troopers. About 20 of them were killed. So Reno and about 60 of his men crossed the river and made it up to the bluffs above the river. The rest were still in the woods hiding out and all eventually made it back to safety.

Benteen with his 2 companies had enough of a fools errand and decided to return to the main column, and when they were on the trail to rejoin the main group got a message from Custer his last..."Come quick, big indian village, bring packs" Meaning pack mules with ammuntion. About the time Reno gained the bluffs above the river Benteen arrived with his 2 companies. They reorganized and took care of the wounded. By that time the pack mules and guarding company arrived.(It was during this time that the indians had largely left and were busy with Custer) Captain Godfrey and 2 companies started off to find Custer. About a mile up the trail Captain Godfrey crested a high ridge where he could see Indians firing into the ground about 2 miles further up. Also the indians were coming back towards them enmass. They under pressure from the indians retreated to the positions on the bluff, where they held out for a day and half, under heavy firing and attack from the indians. They continually wondered where Custer was? On the 26th of JUne the situation for water became critical, 24 men using canteens, pots etc made a run down a ravine to get water from the river. Otto Voit and 3 other troopers stood up as a diversion and gave covering fire (For this bravery he was awared the MH). This effort lasted about 2 hours. Late on the 26th the indians pulled out and dispersed. On the 27th the relief colume arrived.

The 7th Cavarly suffered 260 dead plus wounded, the indians lost about 30 warriors during the fight and maybe another 20 or so died of wounds afterwards. The indians multilated most of the bodies so that they were for the most part unrecognizable. Custer was shot in the left breast and also had a gunshot wound in the temple, but was not multilated, some thnk he might have killed himself. Capt Keogh also was untouched as he had a Papal Medal that the indians thought was big medicine. Custer and the majority of officers were found grouped together, on Last Stand Hill. Keogh was found in the reserve company area surrounded by his Sergents.

The Cavarly was armed with a single shot Trapdoor Carbine and a Colt Single Action revolver. The Indians had aproxiamately 200 Winchester repeating rifles along with every imaginable combination of firearm. So the indians had more close in firepower than the cavarly, that and the fact that there were roughly 2000 + warriors did Custer in.

Sitting Bull had a vision before the battle that there would be a great victory, but took no part in the fight. Crazy Horse rode through the center of the cavarly lines at one point in the battle.

After the battle the remaining 7th Cavarly troopers buried the bodies as best they could.

Starting in 1985 there have been several archaeological digs on the battle field, where quiet a few myths were laid to rest. There have been several books written on the finding of the digs which are fascinating. They were even able to trace one indians movements on the battle field by following his trail of spent cartridge cases. I would say the 2 best books on the Battle itself are "The Reno Inquest" which is testimony given by all the surviving officers as to what they did and what happened. The 2nd book is "Lakota Noon" which puts indian accounts into a time line format...which finially makes sense of the indian accounts and is an excellent book on the subject.

So much for Porsches...

[yopurp]

Tabs,
You're now on my ignore list too. Interesting, but sooo off topic, and (typical) sooo all about YOU.


LetsRoll,
THANKS for the info on Constantine. I'll try him today. Just curious, but did you know my car? Silver '73 S? Either way, I sure appreciate the info.

The hunt continues.

[tabs52]

Hey look over yonder, Up in a tree, theres a rope hangin just for me...an I don't want it, an I don't want it......

History is History and a question was asked.....Yourppy you started a discussion about the importance of Historical Research and I gave it to you...So don't get santicmonious on me...

[gruen911]

Tabs,
Just a heads up. Tonight at 8pm on the Discovery Channel is a documentary on Little Big Horn which is told from the Indian viewpoint. Might be of interest to you and your fire stick.
Regards

[RandyWebb]

You can also get some info from the Cal. emissions agency.

And you can contact PCA officials to see if they have any info.

But, in general, it's not that important.


BTW, Paul, how did that seat smell?