Titling a classic.

[larry47us]

Like many others on this board, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But, if you don't have the title to the car, you don't own the car. It doesn't matter that you have a bill of sale or receipt or not. It is the title that determines ownership.

My wrench, who is still rebuilding the car that he sold me, had a title that was signed by the Prior Owner. Wrench never registered it. He is not a licensed car dealer, and he didn't want to pay taxes on a car that he was going to turn. (I am not judging here, just stating the facts.)

With my downpayment, he sent me the title, which was signed by the PO with no purchaser's name listed. I put my name in the slot, told the state of Illinois that I bought it from the PO, and got it registered in Illinois.

You should go and get either the signed title, or get your money back. Without the title, expect to wake up some morning with "your" car gone, and no one to call to complain, because the "real" owner found out where it was!!!

larry

[sithot]

All commentary thus far are likely scenarios. I think your seller is in some sort of fiscal hot water.

My guess is that there is less than a 10% chance that he's innocent of any wrong-doing.

Good luck,

Tom

[larry47us]

Unfortunately, if that is the case, Joe may have a really tough time getting either a title, or his money back.

Joe - wish you all kinds of luck resolving this. Keep us posted!!

larry

[sithot]

Unfortunately Joe may have to enlist the services of a professional (lawyer) to sue the party for breach of contract.

It should not have to be this way and it's a damned shame for someone to pull a stunt like this.
Personally, I'd like my PI buddy to see him. He's the scariest sob you've ever met.
Again, walk away if there is any doubt about whom you're dealing with. I've done it on several occasions and have never looked back.

Robert DeNiro said it best in Ronin: "If there is doubt then there is no doubt."

Good luck to you, Joe.

Tom

[jdevil325]

First of all, thank you all for your input. I've been doing this collection thing for 6 months & I learn something new every day. Based on the messages I received I ran a Car Fax report, I know, much later than I should have. It came up entirely clean ie. the last transaction was the PA dealer with the same title #s as the one I have. So apparently the car is legal.

I also today did some research on the Colorado DMV site & plan to contact them to get their input & to see what penalties my seller might incur from them. At that point Don's suggestion of the Colorado Attorney General's office may be an option.

Finally, if my man does not respond tomorrow I intend to provide him this transcript of messages. I also have a couple of other ideas thanks to you guys.

Again, I thank you all. I can't wait to borrow some of your expertise relating to the real reason I joined the Registry, namely my 911e and 914-6.

Joe Delleville
314 889 1002

[sithot]

Joe:

You might want to clean up the veiled threats that my redneck cousins threw in. I don't think that would help your case.

AG's office is always a good place to start. Especially the Consumer Affairs devision. They come down pretty hard on retailers and the like when there is a complaint.


Good luck,

Tom

[larry47us]

Joe:

I am still a bit confused. The seller has a title, but it is from PA, not from CO, and the seller doesn't want to give it to you? Why Not?

Even if the title the seller has is from PA, but is signed by the PA dealer, your state should accept the title for transfer. If the title doesn't exist, the seller should be able to get the PA dealer to get a replacement title for him.

If there is no title, and the seller won't help you get one, I would hope that you can get your money back. Because, without the title, you have possession of a car you don't own. The transfer of money doesn't make you the legal owner if the seller doesn't have the right to sell the property.

larry

[lbritish]

I think the problem is.... PA dealer signed title transfer and indicated Colorado owner as buyer on the title transfer section... By Colorado law Colorado buyer person is to turn in completed transfer title to Colorado motor vehicles department people for a Colorado title to be generated... where they then say... oh... hey.. you bought a vehicle.... $24,000 you say? you owe us sales tax.... that'll be.. (6% I think???) $1440... it's now got colorado guys name there and the only way to get a form to put your name on is if colorado guy turns in his title from PA to get a blank one that he can transfer it to you...

so... now you got a problem... Colorado buyer is now a sales tax evasion situation... taxes... fines/penalties.... etc..etc.. usually calculated monthly with interest on back taxes owed... PA dealer has on record a sale of this vehicle during a certain year to a guy in Colorado... he cant really get a duplicate title and mark it to you without getting himself in hot water for some sort of fraud of falsification of vehicle title records.... especially when he did nothing wrong to begin with...

You're going to have to leverage legal stuff to make Mr. Colorado buyer face the music and take his licks for being a bad boy...

Bad boys bad boys... whatcha gonna do when they come for you....

[larry47us]

Yes, if the PA dealer put the buyer's name on the title as buyer, then it could be game over.

But in Illinois, there is a place on the back of the title for subsequent transfers. So it can have the Colorado seller's name, but then the seller can "assign" the title to the new buyer - our boy. I don't know if it can be done without penalties, but there would be no registration required, just assignment of the title.

If the seller isn't willing or able to do it, our buyer is in a tough position.

larry

[sithot]

Larry is correct. Virginia is also a state that allows for subsequent transfers and allows a lot of room on the title for such activity. I've bought and sold over 40 motorcycles in my "other" hobby as well as countless cars.
One thing for sure is that no money changes hands until I see a clear title. No promises, no excuses, no stories.

Try this out for what it's worth. Also NADA publishes something that looks like a phone book which shows titles from all the states and the various rules/laws that govern them. I had one but cannot put my hands on it right now.

http://www.onlinedmv.com/

Good luck,

Tom