2.2S 245 HP engine: excellence was expected?

[bob tilton]

so i read this ad on craigslist:

I HAVE A 1967 EUROPEAN 911S motor i bought from the orginal owner who had it rebuilt by Porsche some years ago. iy had a minor oil leak and the owner (very very picky) had it removed to be fixed and the car was destroyed in a storm. It will need taken apart and new gasgets installed since it has sat for several years out of a car but all parts inside are new! new 2.2 euro pistons (instead of the original 2.0 set), new cylinders, new cam cam chain parts, true 'S' cams, redline 9000 rpm! this engine made 223 horsepower stock, with the 2.2 pistons it should be closer to 245, with a good exhaust and modern ignition even more!! this is the most powerful non turbo motor Porsche has ever made in terms of horsepower per liter, had the world title for the same till the honda s2000 came out 30 years later! i was offered 6k for it several years back but i just need to get rid of it at this point, so its going to the best offer in the next few weeks.

i'm in the market for a solution to my non-stock 2.2T so i contacted the owner. i asked about the stated HP in which his reply was for me to ck out excellence was expected where the spec is printed as well as a dyno sheet.

can someone please find that info? the guy seems nice and it is not my intention to be confrontational. i would just like to see the facts in print as like many of you i know it to be false.

[pwd72s]

Did he give a page number? I have a copy, but it's a pretty thick book...

[bob tilton]

sorry no page number. wish i could be more help but i have never even held a copy of that book.

[pwd72s]

It's over 850 pages, not counting the bibliography and indexes. Without a page number, it would be a LONG time looking for what he referred to. Perhaps a stroke job here?

[Dan Byers]

Bob, I have been reading EWE recently again and rememer someting about that. I just looked and see on pages 395-397 Karl Ludvigsen write about the 916 engine. ( This is the rereleased EWE ) Basically the 916 was a high performance twin-overhead-cam edition of the 901. All its crankcase and bottom-end components were like those of the 901 except for detail changes. This engine was conceived as a potential passenger-car engine with immediate racing applications. Its output as tuned for competition use was 230bhp @ 9000rpm. Perhaps this is the engine the seller is reffering to? There are no dyno sheets in my book. Perhaps some of the experts can chime in. At 6K I would think that would be a steal for a piece of Porsche history. Seems as though the 916 never really was produced in mass but only for some 911R of the late 60's. It did provide a platform for the 908 engine. The last of the 916 engines were sold in 72 to Mueller-Perschel.
All info taken from EWE.
Hope this helps

[Steve@Rennsport]

Hi Bob:

IMHO, someone has gotten mixed up on these engines.

The factory 2.2 race motors were actually 2.3 litres and used 46 IDA's, 906 cams, twin-ignition, 10.3:1 CR, headers w/megaphones, and the small 906 fan to make 230 HP (DIN) at 7800 RPM.

An "S"-cammed 2.2 engine will not run to 9000 RPM due to restrictions in airflow. These things can make 210 HP with VERY careful assembly and some internal modifications.

[gruen911]

I inquired a few days ago about this engine and was told the same thing.
The guy advised me that he has no documentation to support what components he states are in the engine or any work done on it. Based upon rebuilding with 2.2S Euro pistons and nothing else but stock S cams etc, his claim that the 67 S engine puts out north of 220hp is VERY hard to believe, especially without any dyno proof or rebuild info. Buyer be(very)ware.

[911s911rs]

Gruen's right. Come on gents, anybody with a nice piece of hardware is not going to sell it on Craig's List... get real. This was discussed elsewhere and the conclusion was (to quote a local legend):

That (engine) is a RAT...spelled... Capital J.. small u... small n... small k.....

[Chuck Miller]

The 'old school' rule of thumb was:

A normally aspirated 'race tuned' engine (not a qualifying 'handgranade') would put out about 100 flywheel hp per liter reliably though their intended event, series, or even year. Some motors were easier to get that ratio from then others. Back in the day I helped race a 1300cc C/Sedan Alfa GTA that was dynoed at 131 hp. We were competing against 1275cc Mini Cooper S's that were struggling to get 120 hp. Of course the Mini was on the good side of the SCCA's class weight formula ... but that's a different story. The ratio would hold even in the bigger classes. An A/Sedan or TransAm car was 5 liters, and put out about 500 hp. Now these were 'race' motors that needed 'freshening' (bearings/valve jobs/etc.) periodically.

Porsches were getting a little more RELIABLE hp then their competition...

You ask, how bout all the old Porsche factory hp figures for their racing engines? .... The old 100hp/liter ratio would work if the figures weren't DIN instead of SAE....
Think about it - a 911R/906 2 liter was getting about 210hp - a 2.5 ST, about 250 - a 2.8RSR about 280-300

If you reconfigure the old Porsche hp numbers from DIN to SAE it throws the whole theory all to hell.........

Today... A new Honda 2000 makes over 230 normally aspirated hp at about 8000rpm off the showroom floor...

... and so it goes

[pwd72s]

Bob, if you can, ask for a page number. This could get interesting, or the seller will get quiet...