What is "Original"?

[rst73]

Hello all,
I have been observing that the word original is being used more and more to discribe these cars we enjoy so much, especially S and RS cars. What is original? Is it a car that has been restored usings original parts? Or is it a car a car rebuilt from several cars parts using a hulks good I.D. plates still original?
There are many examples of P51 Mustangs, Shelby Cobras, and Ferrari GTOs all being represented as original and sometimes multiple examples with the same I.D. numbers. In many cases these examples are true masterpieces of the craftsman art. Many have been so good that they have fooled the "experts" on many occasions! When ever something becomes worth a good amount then that item as an original will command a premium. Older Porsches have always been worth more when they are as close to original as possible. These cars have been turned into race cars from street cars and back again, crashed, rebuilt from many parts (original spares and salvaged), retubbed, and re I.D. tagged. I deal with this on a regular basis in my work.
Something is ONLY ORIGINAL ONCE! Any time something is repaired, rebuilt, modified, changed from how it came from its original maker it loses its originality.
My two cents worth.
All the best!
Roger Grago

[fg1227]

Roger,couldn't agree more;I'm see more and more cars described as totally original with just one respay;engine sized increased,larger wheels,and new seats;I'M NOT KNOCKING THESE CARS AS THEY ARE propably great cars,but Roger is correct they're only original once;totally original cars are rare and worth a huge premium. Original is the most abused word in the collector car hobby then comes totally original,Usually totally original is follow with "except for".

[a911s]

Good thread, Roger.

"Original car" to me means all the body panels are original to the car and the motor and transmission are matching numbers to the body. For the term "original car" to mean anything more to a prospective buyer, any restoration would need to be documented and divulged, including body damage, paint, interior, engine/gearbox rebuilds, etc.

"Original condition" as a stand-alone description is a whole different ball game. To me this means an "original car" with original paint with no significant defects on any panel, all the original trim in place, the interior would need to be completely original, and the engine & gearbox would never have been rebuilt. Items that could wear out in less than 50,000 miles could be replaced (shocks, tires, brake pads, etc), but more than that, and to me it's not in "original condition" - it's an "original car" in less than original condition or one that that has been restored to original condition either in part or in whole. Again, complete disclosure and documentation would be necessary for any of this to mean anything.

By these definitions, original cars are actually pretty rare, and original condition early 911s are exceptionally rare - not many cars considerd in original condition actually fit this description in reality.

Just my 2 cents..

[tfiv]

Great thread. The term "original" carries so much weight in our hobby it's bound to be misunderstood by the novice, and misused in the pursuit of profit by others. There are definitely degrees of originality in my opinion. You can't put a car that has been completely taken apart for restoration, and had extensive rust repair, in the same category as one which has recieved just a careful re-spray along the way. There is an urge by some in the hobby to make old cars perfect, (or my favorite) "better than new". I'll take the one with thin original paint and a yellowing headliner any day.

[69Sman]

Originality is in the eye of the seller or buyer, I guess. It is a VERY good question. As my Ferrari mechanic used to LOVE to say: A car is ONLY original once!'

That said, my FAVORITE word these days is 'respray'. as in 'ALL ORIGINAL EXCEPT FOR 1 RESPRAY IN THE 80'S'. Respray. I love it...

[fg1227]

Jeff,I have several you and anybody else are welcome to come see them anytime,Rick Cabell has seen them on several occasions and can verify their originality;but this is a great thread

[jaudette3]

This is an interesting thread -- it's a topic that has been discussed at great length in the 356 community over the years. It's also interesting to define the different categories of parts. Here are some I can think of:

(1) Original
On the same car the car was originally installed on and not refurbished.

(2) Original
Original from another car than the one currently installed on, not refurbished.

(3) Sorta Original
Refurbished original part on same car it was originally installed on.

(4) Kinda Original
Refurbished original part from a car other than the one it is currently installed on.

(5) New Original
NOS

(6) New Original ?
NNS (New New Stock) - made by the same OEM that made the original part.

(7) Old Repro
Early reproduction parts.

(8) New Repro
Modern reproduction parts.

What did I miss? Tricky subject....

Cheers,
John Audette

[CurtEgerer]

Respray. I love it...

It sounds so much less invasive than REPAINT, doesn't it? Sort of like spraying ArmorAll on your tires.

[RandyWebb]

Th eproblem is that there is no legal definition for these terms. A seller could say it means one thing even when a buyer doesn't think it means that. A buyer will have some recourse if the seller is a business, but not if the seller is just another individual.

It als depends on what has been replaced - some problematic areas will be:
oil filters - obviously not the original one; is a period (orange) one included?
chain tensioners - non-original is good if you drive the car
bolts & nuts - are they period correct?
nipple bolts on simplified differentials - non-original is good if you drive the car
and so on...

Luckily, I am not a concours or even period correct person, so I avoid a lot of headaches.

[BBausser]

Orginal cars are a dime a dozen. You can find them in new car showrooms or museums. Me I like drivers and by everyones definitions drivrers arn't orginals cause things wear out, rust out, fall off, get hit, dinged, rained on and occasionally s##t on. But if we maintain, replace, repair, fix, paint, upgrade we get knocked for not having original's. Go figure.