1973 Carrera RS Cars for Sale

[911MRP]

Thanks. Always interesting to learn about the RS model especially from owners who've had them a long time.

Pleased I asked some questions about the cheapest base Carrera RS that was apparently later given the moniker "Homologation" given what info is surfacing from Mark H and SKM last few days.

(Although Olaf's letter from nineties refers to the term "homologation" for the cheapest base Carrera RS I have still not yet seen that moniker used in factory literature of 72/3 when the cars were for available sale. Still suspect that label and RSH has been introduced later as shorthand to refer to these 17)

The factory ownership / friends of factory getting a number of them makes some sense if they were not promoted. Porsche did charge more above the base price for M***according to price lists back in the day so presumably the benefits of adding them were pitched to buyers and or the fact coves ions m471/2 were more usable usable without things like 165 VR front tyres helped customers other than diehards pay that bit more.

I'm in touch with an original UK buyer who got a first series touring in 1972-- I'll see if I can get him to recall anything about his conversation with dealer. He does have a strong recollection about journeys in it so maybe it will inform. Also in contact with the dealer principal who sold mine and four other examples new ( M471 and 4 M472)

Noted it 5 and 5 (1%) of each in the first 500 + 500 series -- a coincidence or some rationale for that being that number not converted?

Not sure the theory put forward previously that each example of 17 was built expressly to present some particular change to homologation body for is really confirmed in SKM's list and notes. Several examples might show this possibility but not (yet) evident from direct evidence / correlation in all but possibly a few cases. May never will be given Olaf's comments.

Can I ask such Carrera RS owners a question ...In the case of the 7 later examples listed is it correct that they didn't have lighter thin gauge panels that had been exhausted and do have the features usually seen on other late series examples eg opening rear windows, rear bumpers etc, etc?

Always facinating to learn about the Carrera RS model's nuances.

[DougM36]

This document shows a base price of 34,000 DM. M471 was +700 DM and M472 was plus 2,500 DM

RS Pricing.JPG

[Patrick78]

From post #1074, I understand :

1) that as long as the homologation process, for Group 4 and then 3, was going on the client of the RSH was Porsche ( for instance if I am correct 9113600020 is in fact R2, and I suspect that 9113600019 is R1 that has been severely damaged at the 1972 TDC), with three exceptions. Would be interesting to know who were mr Lintorf and mr Russling, and their relations with Porsche. All this make sense : all the first 500 were already sold at Paris auto show, so I guess there was no need to deviate from the initial marketing plan (M471, M472, M491) and the fabrication plan (make first a RSH, have it weighted and consequently homologated, and thereafter send it back to Weisach to set it as per client requirements expressed in the second purchase order). What Porsche needed probably is to secure some cars to care for their own purpose (competition, representation, etc.), and for a competition car, better start from a RSH rather from a M472 !.

2) As soon this process was no more needed that is to say once the 1000 FIA required cars had been fabricated, Porsche still fabricated some RSH (whereas the fabrication process was back to normal, eg cars were directly fabricated to client requirements) and sold them exclusively to private client, mostly in June 1973. This is a mistery for me : has somebody here around a clear answer for this : why this after math homologation ? ( an anticipation of the 3.0RS homologation ???), why to private clients ? Were these late RSH not rather special orders ?

[911MRP]

No price listed for the base version on the order forms, only M471, M472 and M491 models.

Priceless? Actually it was the poverty spec back in the day

image.jpg

The above shows prices for the base version which was listed as Carrera RS (not listed as Homologation). Posted list earlier but pricing columns did not appear in the close up picture I posted then.

On the basis of things posted the Carrera RS was cheapest way of owning on this list in 1/2/73. Incremental prices given for the conversions.

Further evidence of a suggested retail price for Carrera RS i.e.base model ( that later got dubbed homologation) might put pay to to the suggestion that the basic Carrera RS was not actually available for to buy except to friends of factory. Or just available to the factory itself.

Despite all the discussion and information appearing I am beginning to wonder if too much is being read into some or all of the particular 17? In light of Carrera RS base having a suggested retail price and it being listed for sale isn't the simplest logic that examples were either ones factory (or known race friends of factory who were adept at working on cars) planned to race or do other work therefore did not want to have the unnecessry time and cost of the second step conversion when they would only be undergoing the relevant work themselves?

In the two step ordering process the customer ordered a Carrera RS then specified the conversion and other options. For the first two series that is.

Since it was listed for sale in several markets with a retail price prospective Carrera RS customers didn't need to ante up the extra if didn't for some reason want extras of M*** option group done at factory. Presumably very few the dealers regular consumers who were not planning to race or modify a top if range Porsche did actually order the "basic" spec Carrera RS. Maybe due so to the uncompromising and pretty unusable spec -- most notably those 165 tyres on the then top of range 150mph car!

So far not heard a plausible explanation of why the FACTORY itself had a purpose for building the third series base Carrera RS beyond some of them being made that way for own use and some customers actually ordered that configuration. Is there really solid proof beyond maybe a couple of examples that these served any purpose in actual homologation of a new part, after the circa 1000 had been used to secure homologation status ? If not is homologation really the right moniker for all of the 17?

The more old factory documentation from 1972/3 that I see notably devoid of this "Homologation" term being used back -- and from Olaf's letter it seems that homologation crept in as a later moniker as the research was being done -- a shorthand way referring to the few cars leaving factory without M471/472 or M491. Handy shorthand doesn't necessarily imply special homologation role for them all, does it? Moniker is handy because is a bit of a mouthful to otherwise explain the differences. But so doing confuses if looking for real documented role of these cars in homologation.

Carrera RS or Carrera RS with relevant M*** would seem like the true accurate way to think and talk about about it. That is what is clearly shown in item above from first months of 1973.

Homologation as a term most accurately should be reserved for cars that have demonstrably played a role in homologation -- the first two series plus any of those with a paper trail showing that the chassis was actually used in a homologation activity. Like "lightweight" for even the late M471 term will probaly continue to be used, however

If I were in market for a car termed "homologation" for the amount of money they might fetch I'd want to see what role it played in homologation documented if there is no record of the factory calling it that back in the day. Is the fashion for using homologation moniker inferring a role that may or may not have been the case for some of these 17.

I don't dispute rarity of just 17 leaving factory without M*** or suggest things like known friends of factory oftentimes being owners or kept factory use itself should not impact market values for examples ....but on this forum we need to be clear on things. Be sure we are not somehow confusing or maybe even over egging their importance in at least some of the 17 cases when using terms like homologation (likewise for M471 when using the term "lightweight").

All the first ~ 1000 are certified homologation cars. Their complex RS ordering and production process were designed specifically for that certification purpose. Does anyone doubt that these were actually homologation car AND in majority of cases also got an M***?

Just like the moniker "lightweight" for M471 can be misleading and can diminish those M472 cars with thinner panels ...is it possible that use of "homologation" moniker in its narrow application to refer to just 17 examples somehow overlooks (diminishes?) the importance of ~ 1000 examples that actually certifiably had a proven role in homologation for Group 3/4.

I'm sure getting terms straight wouldn't impact values f the 17 because people seem to like rarity and novelty.

As enthusiasts we should however be clear what terms be it those originally used or those used later actually mean. If it is just a shorthand term for no M*** than could be somewhat misleading if it is claiming a special above all other ~1000 role in homologation process that I think the latter needs to be substantiated.

In summary:
All first two series Carrera RS chassis ~ 1000 are certainly homologation cars in sense of them being THE evidence provided regardless of wether they finally left factory M*** or not. Doubt anyone can disagree since that evidence was deliberately gathered at the Stuttgart town scales and used by factory with sporting body to get homologation status.

The question is ....Are all 17 that left the factory without M*** really PROVEN to have a role in a formal homologation process for Carrera RS. If not then is "homologation" really the correct term to use now to label all of them -- especially if the factory didn't actually label them with that term in sales and other literature in 1972/3 seen posted so far? Novelties with value commensurate due to small numbers and or factory or some case interesting owners maybe -- but the only examples that can be labeled homologation really?

Steve

PS noticed the pricing posted above is labeled "Racer" presumably to link to the limitation of use in USA and letter restricting use. No currency specified but assuming USD.

[911MRP]

I think I can explain what is bothering me about this use of the homologation term with a sports analogy .....

One about the squad of a winning team of a big event like a Super Bowl or for people outside USA the World Cup Soccer final.

If a very few (interesting) players did not actually play in the "final" but were certainly members of the overall squad around that time -- right to give them that team squad credit. But if regarding those who stayed on the bench throughout that event some years later it was being inferred that ONLY they (not the other players known to have taken to the field in the final) are the ONLY ones from the squad that should be labeled as the "champions" -- everyone would either just laugh or even be up in arms about it.

The practice of labelling only some (5+5+7?) Carrera RS examples across the three series with the term homologation -- cars that may (or indeed might not) have had a documented role in the Carrera RS actual homologation process -- is it not somehow similarly misleading to infer they alone have the high ground claim than the known ~ 1000 cars that certifiably did play a part in achieving the model's homologation status. Small numbers and interesting examples of the model in some cases -- probaly. But claiming the exclusive right to use term "homologation" in RS context -- really?

I had some dealings with the very helpful Olaf about RS in nineties (not regarding homologation) and I can only assume he would have wished no misunderstanding about this kind of terminology.

If further hard evidence proving a pre-eminent role of ALL of these 17 examples (w.r.t the first ~1000 role) in the RS homologation process, then I'm always happy to learn.

[928cs]

Which one is it?
http://www.thiesen-kg.de/en/angebot_...095.html?f=new

911 360 1035 maybe?

[HughH]

if that Pflegepass belongs to the car it is 9113601035. The engine 6631015 noted on that document belongs to that VIN. Also it was a tangerine M472 car delivered to Fellbach b. Stuttgart Fa Hahn Automobile, dealer code 115 which is also on the Pflegepass.

[911MRP]

Has anyone seen it? How much are they asking for this example?

[beh911]

I thought Motor Meister was out of business?

[DOUGS73E]

RM | Sotheby's Auction, Battersea Evolution, London, UK
Held in partnership with the Concours of Elegance, Windsor Castle - Offered on: Wednesday, September 7, 2016
1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS 2.7 Lightweight, Lot 133
VIN: 9113601418
Engine: -
Trans: -
Color: Lt Yellow/Black
Mileage: 62,162 km (indicated)
Auction Estimate: £450,000 - £550,000/~US$600,000-$725,000
Sold for: £224,000 / ~US$333,603

73 RS LW 1.jpg

73 RS LW 2.jpg

73 RS LW 3.jpg

73 RS LW 3-1.jpg

73 RS LW 4.jpg

Auction Description:

- Offered from a private collection of exceptional Porsches
- One of just 200 M471 lightweight “Sport” versions
- Regularly serviced and maintained by Porsche
- Porsche Certificate of Authenticity

The lightweight RS 2.7 offered here was sold new to its first owner, Josef Pütz, in June 1973. The Porsche was then acquired by Dr Reinhard Wolfgang Jacobi on 23 August 1984. At the time, the car is noted as having been driven 38,000 kilometres. He then proceeded to restore the car, beginning in the following May of 1985. It is believed that the original engine and gearbox were replaced during restoration, as the RS currently sports an unstamped engine block and replacement transmission. Though it is unclear when the restoration was completed, Dr Jacobi reregistered the Porsche 10 years later in January 1995.

In 2000, the Carrera RS was acquired by the current owner, an avid collector of limited-production Porsches. It has since been properly maintained in his collection and regularly serviced by Porsche Zentrum Flughafen Stuttgart, receipts for which are included on file. Recently driven by an RM Sotheby’s car specialist, he notes that the Porsche drives and handles exceptionally well, as nicely as any RS 2.7 he has had the pleasure of driving.

ADDENDUM
Please note that this car is a 1973 911 Carrera RS 2.7 Lightweight, though it has been rebodied.