F. Porsche designed race car resurfaces

[GTS]

Hi All,
Why are they referring to the Nazi era built cars, that has so a bad taste and shouldn't be used as an advertising tool.
On the other side Ferdinand hat the Konstruktion Buro and was working on Plau's, Energie sources,watercrafts and what brought him into prison with the french the construction of war material as the Tiger,Panther and Maus tanks besides the various kontructions through the KdF works.
But he did that also in WW I for the Austrian German axis developing ammunition trains for the street or tractors for pulling artillery.So to bring him into a Nazi follower just is not right.
The Porsche development in Weissach were the developing source for the Leopard I and II Tank for Germany and the Nato allies.
Every construction bureau is looking for government contract and so did Porsche, that he delivered the exact thing the top wanted was a due to the genius and the feel for the wider customer base.
He was far to inteligent to be a follower of the brown hords and should not be named to have favored the nazi doctrine.
War time has always been the driving force for developments and the biggest opportunities for engineers and construction bureau's.
I am German and I am proud of Ferdinand Porsche and his contructions and the success his family accomplished .Without him ,them and his idea's we wouldn't be enjoying such a colorful hobby as we do.
And if he would have read the "discription" Christie's gave he would have been quite upset as we all are.

[JohnT]

"I make ze rockets go up. Where zey come down? Zat's not my department says Wherner Von Braun."

That we drive and enjoy Porsches, doesn't change what the good Doctor did to create the machines that took a lot of my parent's generations lives.

johnt

[boxster03]

The Costanza Home, Queens]

(Frank and Estelle sit in the living room as George walks in from the front door.)

GEORGE: (pointing outside) Why is there a Cadillac parked in front of the house?

FRANK: That's your mother's new car.

GEORGE: You bought that?

FRANK: It's a Coupe de Elegance.

ESTELLE: Your father wanted a Mercedes, but I won't ride in a German car

[CurtEgerer]

>>>Why are they referring to the Nazi era built cars, that has so a bad taste and shouldn't be used as an advertising tool.<<<

Stephan - the fact is they were built during the Nazi era and without Nazi support, the Silver Arrows (both A-U and Mercedes) would never have been built - there's a certain amount of misguided romanticism associated with that, I think. I'm also of German heritage but this doesn't bother me a bit. I can completely separate the Nazi's from the engineering genius that resulted in the Silver Arrows. OK, the money trail is not pleasant, but that's an entirely different discussion. The fact is that Porsche was designing incredible cars long before the Nazi's came to power. In fact, the forerunner of the C- and D-types was designed by Porsche alone and before Auto Union was even around. The P-Wagen (Porschewagen) :

[911T1971]

Many automotive inventions have been first invented for military purposes and all automotive industrial enterprises (GM, Chrysler, Kaiser, Ford, Citroen, Renault, M-B, BMW ,Porsche) worked for the armed forces during the war- for the“good or bad “cause.

The famous 4x4 concept of Audi stems from an lost army contract for a jeep-like vehicule for the german Bundeswehr (which later Piech hooked to an Audi 80 chassis and impressed the CEO’s), the german airplanes carried BMW motors which carried bombs to the UK but english marque Bristol used BMW motors to drive their first car after the WWII…the French state emprisioned both father and son Porsche (without official proper charges filed against them) but forced the same Ferdinand Porsche to help developing their own rear engine driven french “peoples car” Renault 4 while in prison…and famous german engineer Dr.Werner von Braun was not only responsable putting the first US Astronauts on the moon with his Saturn rocket in 1969 but also worked 1944 as an young engineer for the Nazi’s in Penem&#252;nde developing V1 and V2 rockets to be shot towards London killing many (allied) British citiziens…

I guess Porsche was, similar to Henry Ford in the US, the most important automotive german engineer of his generation and, after working for many other companies and witnessing the dramatic nations changes in Europe with its demise of an austro-hungarian empire in 1918, the change of his former birthplace in Bohemia (today Czech) to Austria and later Germany…he probably dreamed to develop not only cars for rich clients, racing or military proposes but, as Henry Ford did with his Model T, too, for an mass market.
Setting up his office in 1930 he had already plans for such a car before the Nazi’s came to power in 1933 - and that Volkswagen came finally real in 1949 with the help of a british decision in war-occupied Germany.

As many german engineers who’ve been forced to work ether for the Sowjets or the US after the war (for obvious reasons they chose the later nation) Ferdinand Porsche was probably first most interested to fulfill his dream to have its own car company he envied so much while visiting Ford in Dearborn in the 20/30ies and he was probably more interested in its engineering job rather some political views - even he had a very privileged situation during the years of 33-45 which shurley not has been the case for many other citizen at that time.

As for the Christies ad-yes, maybe its a better not to advert it like that...still a great car, tough.
Jerry Seinfeld was recently asked on a german documentary why he is collecting german Porsche's besides his family backround and he told he is well aware about that paradox but still thinks the Beetle is one of the best
products of that very dark time in european history.

[denizen224]

As to the point about design credit for the D Type, I would still maintain that the car was an evolution of the radical concept of the original A. [...] If asked who designed the 911, would most answer Tony Lapine, Harm Lagaay, or Butzi Porsche?

Erwin Komenda.

[Jim Garfield]

Erwin Komenda.

........

No, but seriously. I think that everyone would agree that Komenda's contribution to the genetics of the Porsche shape is undisputable, but thank goodness that the decision was made to go with Butzi's design over the ungainly Type 754 T9 model that Komenda did. If the decision had gone the other way it's possible this forum wouldn't exist. In my opinion, I believe the 911 quite possibly could have disappeared in obscurity had they followed the other path. It sometimes is a fine line between stunning and fugly.

[denizen224]

True, true... But in the context of the thread, was the move from the 356 to the 911 evolutionary or revolutionary?

I'd say it was a bit of both. Butzi's 911 was certainly a more revolutionary step than going from, say, the 356A to the 356B. But the ground for the basic 911 concept was effectively broken by Erwin's (and Ferry's) 356. There's a lot of credit to pass around.

Discuss.

[Jim Garfield]

Oh, ok, I see your point. I agree that in the bigger picture the 911 could be considered as an evolution of the 356 and EK's influence is significant in the shapes of both cars.

My point about the AU cars was that the whole concept and execution was so revolutionary and basically from the mind of one man, that the C and D models that followed were mostly refining the breakthrough concept.

[silverc4s]

True, true... But in the context of the thread, was the move from the 356 to the 911 evolutionary or revolutionary?

I'd say it was a bit of both. Butzi's 911 was certainly a more revolutionary step than going from, say, the 356A to the 356B. But the ground for the basic 911 concept was effectively broken by Erwin's (and Ferry's) 356. There's a lot of credit to pass around.

Discuss.

I once had the opportunity to view and study a 356 SC coupe and a very early 911 SWB Normal coupe side by side for most of a day. Those two cars are very similar, and the leap to the 911, while still a truly wonderful one, is much more understandable in that context.
Things such as Fuchs, black instruments, flared fenders, and such all came a bit later in the process.