FIA appendix K and chassis date question

[ixxifan]

Hi All
I've just bought a 911L chassis 306288 and was wondering when it was manufactured? The reason I ask is I was wondering if it's eligible for FIA appendix K papers or does it have to be manufactured by 31 Dec 1965 to qualify?
Thanks
Steve

[one-two]

Steve, if I understand correctly, a later car can get app K period F papers as long as it's to exactly the same spec as a pre-66 car, ie Solexes rather than Webers and so on. I think another question worth asking, however, is whether in practice a replica would be as eligible as a genuine pre-66 car?

[911scfanatic]

That's a 1967 chassis, which would make it after 12/31/65 I believe.

[davidppp]

Hello, Steve.

The 2007 version of Appendix K , p152, Appendix VII reads:

901/911
----------
- The 901/911 short wheelbase model introduced in 1963 is eligible as
a GTS in Period F, to the specifications of the FIA homologation form
n° 183 of 1965 only. (i.e. excluding subsequent extensions). Form n°
503 (Weber carburettors) is only valid for Period G.
- Cars of Period F may use the camber adjustment facility featured on
the front suspension top mounts, introduced on chassis n° 302695.
- The use of the parts listed below is permitted (GTS, Period F,
homologation form n° 183):
- Fuchs 51⁄2 inches alloy wheel.
- Löbro half shafts.
- The 901/20 type engine, and the corresponding rocker arms, may be
used only in post-1966 911R.
- 911 Carreras model G of the year 1974 and beyond may use 7 inches
wheels at the front and 8 inches wheels at the rear, as supplied by the
make concessionaire.
- 915 gearboxes are not allowed on 911 cars before 1972.

However, Appedix K for 2005 read:
901/911
----------
- The 901/911 short wheelbase model introduced in 1963 is eligible as
a GTS in Period F, to the specifications of the FIA homologation form
n° 183 of 1965 only. (i.e. excluding subsequent extensions).Only Chassis numbers from 300 001 to 305 100 are admitted; Form n°
503 (Weber carburettors) is only valid for Period G.

So you can see your question is one of the few which was very specifically addressed: but this rule has been relaxed, in accordance with the post by Robert above.

However, it appears that in practice many race organisers are not at all keen to accept entries from "replicas" of Period F cars..they may insist on the Real Deal..

I would be very reluctant to invest good money building a car which while it could be made eligible for the "FIA Technical Certificate", would nonetheless be a bit dodgy for entries, and thus for resale etc..

Much better to buy a correct car to begin with..its but a small part of the overall costs, which are now in the region of £30-40K however you look at it.

The Rally world is much less fussy..

Kind regards
David

[ixxifan]

Thanks for your advice guys very much appreciated
Steve

[GTS]

Hi Steve,

I have dealt with the technical inspectors in Europe and I would highly recommend to go with a car prior 305100.....
You might find a relaxed inspector, but once the hit the winner circle a competitor might not take it well and have you booted out...
I know what I am taking about, after getting closer to the winning circle I found that the technical commisars were highly interested in my car, as I had lowered below the 80mm due to an increased oilpan and engine guard I simply threw the last control and everybody relaxed......just my 5 cents....

[ErichW]

Does anybody have more information on racing a 65 911 in the FIA historic series? Is it possible to get the FIA certification in the states before sending a car over? I have heard that the rollcage must be bolt-in.

Thanks,

Erich

[304065]

Well that's interesting.

Cars DO exist before 305100 WITH webers, as they started with engine Nr. 907001. My own car is 304065, before the chassis cutoff, with engine Nr. 907316, which means that the first Weber engine was not much later than 303750. Rich Lambert owns 303870 which is a Weber engine.

I don't really understand Appendix K to be honest. Maybe one of our neighbors across the pond could walk us through the structure?

[Bobs 67S]

This may (or may not) be relative to the other ongoing conversation of the 1965/1966 Model Year (MY) change date.
--------------------
Could it have been the FIA may have influenced how Porsche called (or not called) their Model Year change. After a running 17 year history of Porsche using the September numbers for the MY-end and MY-begin, the 1965 change over to 1966 was not noted and to this day has not been clarified by the factory. The calendar year, yes, but not the Model Year.

Reading this thread (I had one of those - slap palm of hand to forehead and say Doh!! moments of enlightenment) from "FIA appendix K". The FIA has been steadfast in that only the Solex cars were (and are) acceptable for the "real deal" race cars for that period:

"- The 901/911 short wheelbase model introduced in 1963 is eligible as
a GTS in Period F, to the specifications of the FIA homologation form
n° 183 of 1965 only. (i.e. excluding subsequent extensions). Form n°
503 (Weber carburettors) is only valid for Period G."

The key words "of 1965 only" ring loudly. The FIA did not say "Model year 1965" or "year of production 1965" so it was up to Porsche to define "1965".

Guess what? (This is pure speculation on my part....but recalling the period factory's dealing with racing authorities...this is in character with similar interpretation of regulations.)

Without putting too fine a point on this -Porsche could increase the total number of eligible race cars "in Period F" from about 1900 to 3390.

Hmmmmm?

So here we are 42 years later trying to define just when did the 1965 cars end and the 1966 year cars begin. In review of the car numbers we have been collecting both on the Early 911S Registry and Pelican web sites it is coming into focus that the numbers around 301 950 (give or take a hundred numbers either way) there was a change to the paint codes from the 1964/65 to the 1966/67 paint numbers and this can be used as an intended Model Year change to 1966.

About the spring of 1965 a new market car - the right hand drive - was introduced. It also would have been in Porsches favor to not make a FIA distinction as to 1965/66 for those cars eligibility.

The major items and specifications did not see much change from the early year and later year production. The front suspension adjustment points from #302 695 (about Sept/Oct 1965) and possibly the Nadella to Lobro CV joints, were running changes but didn't seem to allign to any production date. Weber carburetors from engine #907 001, was in the next calendar year - Feb 1966. It's obvious that the FIA only focused on the Carburetor as the cut off point. And, the customers and owners didn't have a problem with this for say ...40 years? And, with more documentaion even the change over to the Webers was acknowleged by Porsche a "tad" late compared to when the cars had the 901/05 engines (by about 1200 cars, John?).
How many cars does this effect..if I had a "almost eligible" race car and with recent market considerations for this period of cars - this would be a real BIG deal.

This sure makes for a fun hobby.

[davidppp]

Hello, all.

An invitation to "explain" Appedix K is a poisoned chalice!

It was written in French for a good reason I think..

First of all, we can discount any Factory manipulation in this case: this is all History..ie retrospective..not relevant in the day..

The cut-off date for period F isf 31.12.1965 ...manufactured date, not sold or registered date..

If yoy can find a scrutineer you can get FIA papers anywhere AFAIK..ask the FIA rep body. for your home country..

It must be said there is much "latitude" allowed in some francophone countries..I have seen mag cases, and it is strongly rumoured that 2.2L is de rigeur for Continental rallies..

Kind regards
David