Euro vs. U.S. values (early and later models)

[Vintage Racer]

I am looking for another Porsche but I am a bit confused about "book" values on the cars.

I've noticed no difference in a U.S. model and the Euro model in the early years (1965-1973). Do you agree?

I've noticed that the 1974-1977 years show an increase in value for the Euro vs. the U.S. model. I assume this is because of the better performance of the Euro cars?

Then, it seems to drastically reserve course. The 911SC (1978-1983) U.S. model seems to bring a large premium over the Euro models (esp. with no EPA paperwork).

The Carrera years (1984-1989) seem to be all over the place. I read somewhere (I wish I could find the exact info now) that 1985 was a big year for Euro imports (due to the dollar exchange rate or something). Many sales do not report the fact that it is a U.S. model (or not). It seems to me that a Euro car should sell for much less than a U.S. model, but it is just a guess on my part (due to a lack of pure data). Agree?

[Zithlord]

In Norway(Scandinavia) I would say 10% disadvantage for the US 69-73. I think this difference will be gone in a few years. I have seen this 10 years ago with German imported cars, that difference is now gone. Could also be that very few good examples are left, because of rust issues etc on cars that has had its life in Europe.

John

[pu911rsr]

I'll make some general comments here-
1. Early cars really no difference between US and Euro spec cars other than 73 RS which and 72 US spec T which used MFI in place of Zenith carbs. A lot of the Euro cars that stayed in Europe got used very hard. I think the bulk of the very nice early 911's reside in the US and that is why the Europeans want a nice early car they buy one in the US, that and they get a great discount due to currency issues.
2. During the 80'd the opposite was true the Dollar was strong and people could get a screaming deal on European cars. There used to be a one car exemption on EPA specs but car had to be brought up to DOT standards, these were the grey market cars brough over in droves. Most of the late 70's to mid 80's European 911 had more Performance and HP due to EPA restrictions. Again these cars were riden hard and hung up wet so be careful buying one, also look out for rust.
Phil

[johndglynn]

I've noticed that the 1974-1977 years show an increase in value for the Euro vs. the U.S. model. I assume this is because of the better performance of the Euro cars?

Then, it seems to drastically reserve course. The 911SC (1978-1983) U.S. model seems to bring a large premium over the Euro models (esp. with no EPA paperwork).

The Carrera years (1984-1989) seem to be all over the place. I read somewhere (I wish I could find the exact info now) that 1985 was a big year for Euro imports (due to the dollar exchange rate or something). Many sales do not report the fact that it is a U.S. model (or not). It seems to me that a Euro car should sell for much less than a U.S. model, but it is just a guess on my part (due to a lack of pure data). Agree?

74-77 Euro cars have more power, but also the Euro Carrera is MFI as per the 73 RS, so a 'better buy' than the US Carrera. 76-77 Carrera 3.0 is a nice buy that side of the pond also, as is fairly low on the radar and there are more than a few about.

No idea why Euro cars in the US would be cheaper if they have their smog paperwork, as they are all higher power bar the early SCs. I hear in some states they no longer need to worry about smog. If I was that side of the pond I would be seeking out the Euro models, particularly late Euro SC. Those cars with decent exhausts will knock out more power than a US 3.2 for less money.

Lots of impact-bumper cars coming back this way at the minute, the dollar rate is lovely for European buyers.

[tfiv]

I'm always nervous about a european model early car, as many are (were) rusty, rough cars. It doesn't seem like it was the good ones coming this direction in the late 70's '80s when that was a popular thing to do

[johndglynn]

Just to clarify my own comments - quite a few RoW impact bumper cars came to the US when they were new or thereabouts, and they are the cars I am talking about when I say they should sell for more than US cars. I would not pay more for a shoddy RoW example.

The nice US Euros are also the cars buyers this side of the water are looking for. My RoW SC Cab came to CA when it was new and came back here in '95. It's rot free, and that's a big part of why Europe loves ex-US stuff. That and the great prices compared to what some cars sell for here.

[Soterik]

I would be very cautious of the cars that have been converted to EPA and DOT, as there was a LOT of shoddy work done out there, particularly on some of the electricals and have heard of cars burning to the ground. My father was ending his business of importing right around the mid 80's, his last import was an 84 ROW "new" cabriolet... gorgeous car, but it cost a mint to get the exemption done "right", and not by a fly by night operation (Mardekian). It was hard to find a good shop to do the conversion, and then there were issues with warranties etc.

If I was buying an ROW car from the US, I would spend some serious $$ on a real good PPI.

By the way, not too long ago I bought an ROW 80SC.... it was being sold due to an engine fire ....

Eric

[letsrollbabe]

I tend to agree with John Glynn about the ROW 911s, particularly SCs and 84-89 Carreras. They offer 20-25 hp more power than their US counterparts, and the Carreras had tranny oil coolers to extend the life of the tranny. When looking at values you always have to compare "apples to apples", so a clean lower mileage ROW car in the same condition as the US version would be worth more to me just because of the performance benefits.

The EPA/DOT changes required were to comply with mostly cosmetic (seat belt buzzers, head lite trim, rear bumperette size, etc) and some safety items like door beams, and for the engine a catalytic converter for emissions. If the EPA/DOT paper work is with the car, a quick check to see if the door beams are there is all I would really be looking for on a car that has survived this long. If you need to smog it, check to see if the cat is there, but it is not hard to add one if needed.

Most of these things are really unimportant to most buyers of these 20-25 year old cars today, and the performance is why we buy these cars in the first place. If there was going to be a problem with any work done, it would have been fixed by now, so Bruce Anderson's advice that a ROW car should be discounted seems very dated these days IMO. You can spend $3-5k trying to get extra power from the US 911 (78-89) that comes stock on the ROW 911, and you still don't quite get there.

And there have probably been more cars burned up from engine fires and badly wired stereo systems than anything else...not EPA work.

Gib Bosworth

[pu911rsr]

keep in mind there was a few years where cars could be imported w/o any EPA work needed. Just doors braces, english speedo, dot headlights. The Carrera 3.0 was a neat car as were the 231 HP Carrera's.
Phil

[Vintage Racer]

Lots of impact-bumper cars coming back this way at the minute, the dollar rate is lovely for European buyers.

I've noticed. I know six people that have sold a nice XKE, a real Cobra, three Porsche 911s, and a Sunbeam Tiger to Euro buyers.

After 16 straight years of traveling to Europe on vacation, I stayed home the last 2 summers. The dollar doesn't go far in London (or anywhere else).
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I can now, in part, understand why there is no consensus on the value of the Euro model in the states; it's because different areas have different emissions and titling/tag regulations.

I live in Georgia (near Florida, not Russia ). You can register a car that is over 25 years old without any EPA/DOT paperwork. You also do not need to obtain a passing emissions test (the dreaded sniff test). However, if the car is not yet 25 years old, you must pass an emission test (impossible without the EPA fix).

I assume that other states (and even localities within each state) have different rules and regulations which possibly would effect the value of a Euro car? Does Europe have emission tests?

Thanks a lot for the advice. I am going to go look at a 1985 Carrera coupe today. It was originally purchased in Germany by a guy that was stationed there. He was shipped back to the states after driving the car in Germany for two years (I assume the military could import a car easier than others?). The car never had any EPA/DOT work done to it (it's stock rust-free German-spec). He soon sold the car to the second owner who has owned it since. She rarely drives it anymore. She never drove it in the rain when she did drive it. It's black paint is perfect, and it shows 60km on the odometer.

I am convinced that it is worth more than I originally thought.