74 CARRERA 2.7 us Coupes, Great COLORS!

[Chuck Miller]

OK guys,

After checking ALL the new posts on the board I see the only hiccup is OF COURSE over here in the commerce section... or as I think of it 'the bane of my duties'....

I have taken the time to go through all of Syar's 31 posts and I find this:

- He started to bring to the attention of the entire board different cars for sale on different sites.
- He started stating the prices were going up and cars were going to go abroad.
- He started inquiring and buying early parts.
- He started 'second party' selling (brokering) on this site to parties that wanted to sale their cars.

He's web site has to do with European Race Karting.
He has contributed to this board ONLY in the field of commerce of buying parts and selling cars...

Anything else?

Does this profile fit an other contributors on the board ? ...

What action do think is appropriate ?

As stated before, if action is taken... what of the grey areas ?

This information source belongs to all of us... what do you think?

[Bummler]

Chuck,

Nice job of doing "due diligence". I would never want your job. I personally am at a loss for as what to what the right thing to do is?

[HughH]

Chuck

Firstly i would like to say that you are doing a great job at moderating the board. I know how hard it is having had to do one on a smaller scale in the past.

Secondly I think that it is impossible for you to to catch every "errant thread" immediately - last I heard you still had a "day job" as well.

In the vast majority of posts and members on this board I think there is an attitude of doing the right thing. Occasionally there is an issue, misinterpretation that gets out of hand etc, that causes moderation but, in general, I think the board is well behaved and very well moderated.

Of course, as elsewhere in life, there are always those pushing the boundaries, or just out for themselves, without a care about the rest of the community. I think that is what we have seen in these posts that are under discussion.

I have seen a number of posts by obvious spammers deleted in the past and all records of the poster (always the first post of a "member" who joined that day) deleted. I think that is appropriate and hard enough to keep up with.

I do not approve of the apparent behavior in this post and a small number of others where goods appear to be advertised by a seller who is really only obtaining that information from elsewhere and is hoping for a quick "risk free" arbitrage.

I applaud those who have highlighted this activity, as while I believe in a free market I think a market should be fully informed and active misleading of a situation designed solely for personal gain should be stamped out and has no place on a forum like this.

However I am not sure about banning this member or any other members allegedly doing a similar thing. Prohibition never works and it consumes a lot of valuable resources (that this board does not have to spare).

As it is very easy to sign up under a new name; all banning does is hide the problem for a while and make it that much harder to find the next instance. ie this member now has a "track record" that at least makes the activity easier to spot.

In addition it then creates a much bigger problem - where to draw the line. That is an immense problem for a moderator- even when there are a number of moderators to discus the matter. We have seen a taste of where that can go with a recent thread (initiated as a reaction to this same member.)

While I do not approve of flaming or attacking posters in most circumstances, the collective membership of the board has to take some responsibility and make this an "unfriendly" environment for those who perpetrate "sharp" practices.

They will only do it while they can get away with it. The initial posts on this thread that effectively called the first post's integrity into question I thought provided a warning to anyone thinking of responding to that post.

Who knows, maybe someone is desperate for the exact car posted in one of these posts and either doesn't mind paying the markup (if he knows it is there) or can go off and scour the for sale ads if he knows that this is a repost of another ad. Either way he may be better off by having the post here BUT if there is appropriate disclosure (or cautionary posts from others) he will be informed or be able to take an informed decision.


so instead of banning such members, and deleting the posts, I would be in favour of sightly more tolerance for "critiques" of the "for sale" post.

I know that this opens up some of the problems of where to draw the line, although it becomes the collective responsibility of the membership over time to set the standards, not the onerous responsibility for a moderator (although his job gets increased by this as well).

Also it potentially reinforces some of the comments I have seen made here in the past by members who do not wish to sell their cars on this board due to the "excessive amount" of criticism they have faced on the post with the listing.

From that point of view, it seems that we have moved from one extreme to the other

I have confidence in the nature of the overwhelming majority of the members of the board to be able to strike a middle ground on this and leave Chuck only to moderate the extremes.

[SyarMotorsport]

Response-
Mr.Chuck Miller, your observations are correct and thanks for investing your time in doing so.

Look-
I go on the message board to see cars and parts -the rarer the better, the more pics and info the better.
I believe this is the reason many enthusiast come to this site.
I want to see Early Porsche stuff, and get an idea of what it takes to have it, and how to get it.

On the other hand- we have The Hen House.
Here to bag on everyones stuff, critcize whos got it, where it came form, how much it cost, and how much they think it should cost.

Many people involved in the cars know of this phenomenom here on the Early S Reg.
Many people avoid the site here because of it.
I expect it - and hence dont really care.

I have listed cars I own here, cars friends have owned -here, and cars for individuals selling them -here.
Cars are available and thats what I come on the sight to see and add to the equation.
Enthusiast want to know whats in the market, myself included.

I dont care if a seller found a car for $1,000- or $100,000-, the car will be worth whats its worth regardless.

If I get the car for a price that makes me happy -I dont care if the guy selling it lost his shirt or took a vacation on me.
I dont care if the car is his -or his mailmans car- but most of all I want to know about the cars.

Whiners go home.
Dont hate the player- hate the game.

Let this site be known for "S-Cars" not "S-Holes."

J Syar.

[CurtEgerer]

Looks like an ad on Craigslist, not the Early S Registry!

[sithot]

Response-
Let this site be known for "S-Cars" not "S-Holes."
J Syar.

An "S hole", as you put it, is like an opinion and everyone has one. I don't have a particularly glowing one regarding your activities. You're opinion (of yourself) means little to me. You are a curbstone dealer and a not very honest one at that.

In closing before you make a bigger liar of yourself let it be known (from a personal conversation with the man) that Capt. Keiler with the Green Carrera doesn't know you nor does he want to know you. And, the serial prefix of 440 is for the US Carrera so it's a real car.

Tom

[sithot]

Response-
Let this site be known for "S-Cars" not "S-Holes."
J Syar.

An "S hole", as you put it, is like an opinion and everyone has one. I don't have a particularly glowing one regarding your activities. You're opinion (of yourself) means little to me. You are a curbstone dealer and a not very honest one at that.

In closing before you make a bigger liar of yourself let it be known (from a personal conversation with the owner) that the Carrera owner doesn't know you nor does he want to know you. And, the serial prefix of 440 is correct for the US Carrera and it is a real car and it is not sold. (by you or anyone else).

Chuck; you do what you have to do but this is totally wrong and I don't care what he thinks he's bringing to the table he's not doing it right.

Tom

[69Sman]

I don't have a particularly glowing one regarding your activities. You're opinion (of yourself) means little to me. You are a curbstone dealer and a not very honest one at that.

AGREED!

It's one thing to post a car that you own for sale.
It's another to post a car that you are brokering. In my opinion, nothing wrong with either.
IT IS ANOTHER MATTER ENTIRELY TO 'STEAL' AN AD FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE AND REPRESENT IT AS YOURS. It's ludicrous.
Now, if this guy were posting LINKS to cars for sale elsewhere, AOK! But to post LINKS to cars for sale elsewhere, mark up the price & represent said cars as HIS (most likely without the owners knowledge) is wrong. Plain and simple.

[SyarMotorsport]

Sithot
Why dont you quit trying to bully everyone on the forum.

As I stated- expecting the behavior which you personify- I dont care.

You think your trying to call me a liar is going to push me around -but its not.

Your 'friend' Capt Keiler in fact gave the listing to a friend of mine -who doesnt go on the S Reg because of members like you, but was seeking domestic buyers for that car.

I guess since you cant slam on any of the cars I show here -now you try to bag on the guy who brings them here.

Get off your high horse or stick to BMW bike forums if you want to attempt to bully people.

[2POINT7]

Some good points have been made on this thread:

• J. Syar, aka SyarMotorsport, admits that he is posting cars for sale that he does not own or have the title to. Essentially he finds cars for sale elsewhere then implies that he is the owner by offering them for sale to members of this board.

• As Hugh points out, the only thing banishing SyarMotorsport from this board does is give him the opportunity to reappear under a different alias. At least we recognize the name he is currently using and know to beware of it.

• As Chuck points out, the SyarMotorsport website is all about Kart Racing. No mention of "Porsche" or "911" anywhere. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he attempts this same type of charade on other enthusiast Bulletin Boards; simply part of his M.O.?

So, what should we do?

It is no one's job here, Chuck included, to shield the members of this group from fraudulent activity. We are however a community of like minded enthusiasts and may certainly choose to alert others when suspicious people post deceitful content. I suspect from here forward, the responsible members of this Board will make it increasingly difficult for dishonest people to take advantage the uninformed. In other words, we'll be diligent in calling a spade a spade so that others are not deceived.

Final thoughts...

I for one, appreciate what members like Peter Kane (for instance) do in making us aware of cars for sale without expecting personal gain. They do it for the members, not for themselves. That is clearly not what is happening in this case.

Members will, from time to time post a car for sale that they do not own or hold the title to in an effort to help out a friend or other acquaintance. Again, that kind of activity is not what sparked the spirited comments in this thread. That is NOT what this is about. Don't confuse it.

Maybe we can let this rest now and just agree to continue our diligence going forward in exposing obvious fraud, scams and other misrepresentations.