356 vs. 911

[jetdriver21]

Just wondering the thoughts of 911 experts on the merits of owning/driving a vintage 356 (specific coupe vs. cab comments welcome).

I have never driven a 356, but as most of you know, I have been looking for an early 911 for some time. Just wanted to get opinions on the differences, pros, cons, etc and if I should open my search wider to include the 356.

[NiceT]

Jason,
I was in the same boat four years ago when trying to decide on a new fun toy. The 356 lines are stunning and I started my search for a 356SC. Prices at that time were still around $30k for an SC but I wound up going with a CIS T for similar money. I went to drive a 356C that had a nice cosmetic restoration on a truely rust free original. Great paperwork back to the documents for a factory delivery which included a drivers school at the Nurbergring. The car was stunning with little that bothered me UNTILL I got in and drove it. I left with the explanation to the seller that the car was beautiful and everything he had described it as but I could not get past the feeling that it was nothing more than a $30,000 volkswagen. He said I was exactly right. They are definately different animals... Be patient and keep looking but go drive a few 356's and see what you LIKE.

Daron

[FL-Frank]

Hi Jason,

I owned a '64 C Coupe for a couple of years, and had a lot of fun with it. Only one problem.....not enough power! So, I sold it and bought the '72 911T Coupe and have never looked back.

Good luck,

Frank

[2POINT7]

Based on my experience with 356's, I'll offer this. I'm sure some will disagree with what I have to say but this is one person's perspective.

First, if you want to own a 356 that is 'correct' or, as it was originally, you want a 1964 or 1965 C or SC. These were the most refined and the only 356 that was originally equipped with disc brakes. The SC provided 95 hp, a significant increase (more that 25%) over the C's 75 hp so I consider it very desireable in comparison.

The most beautiful however were the 356 A's (1956 - 1959). With their low bumpers and exaggerated roundness of the body, they are quite stunning. I would only own an 'A' however if my intention was to build an 'Outlaw' as these cars with their original 44 - 75 hp engines, drum brakes and early transmissions feel, in my opinion, rather fragile. An 'A' with maybe a rebuilt 912 engine, disc brakes and later transmission however is a pretty sweet ride.

The 356 B (1960 - 1963) is generally the lowest valued and easiest to come by. The Super 90 engine makes it a useable car but having driven 356's with and without disc brakes; well, if I weren't turning an 'A' into an Outlaw I would be looking for an SC.

I didn't mention Pre-A's or Carrera's but they tend to be rare and costly.

Finally, and reiterating what Daron said, no 356 is going to drive at all like a 911. They are far less mechanical and stout. I do love driving a good 356; they are really fun in a different kind of way. Just don't expect one to act or perform at all like a 911.

[jaudette3]

My start with vintage Porsches was many years ago with 356's. I have owned A's, B's, C's - coupes and open cars. I also restored a number of 356's for others and served as the Technical Editor of the 356 Registry.

Here's a highly subjective list of pro's and con's of 356's:

356 Pro's
---------
o Great enthusiast group with outstanding people, resources and events. Check out the 356 Registry Website.

o Good quality repro parts are becoming available which takes some pressure off parts prices

o Easy to work on yourself (you can R&R an engine in a coupe of hours).

o Power is not abundant, but the cars are light and very nimble. In twisties it's possible to hold your own in a 356 against a pretty hot 911. I'm not a great driver, but I followed my '67 911 (with 2.7 engine) in my S90 Roadster
in a spirited drive through some extreme twisties last summer and was able to stay on its tail.

o Very reliable. Maintenance is frequent, but inexpensive and simple.

356 Con's
----------
o Power is not abundant.

o Rust is very common. Critical to do a PPI.

I sold my almost perfect '60 Super 90 Roadster several months ago and I don't have any 356's currently, just three early 911's. I miss having a 356, but I'm really happy with the cars I have. The SWB 911's are kind of a blend between the 356 and the 911 -- worth trying if you haven't experienced one.

You really can't go wrong with any of them.

Cheers,
JohnA

[super9064]

I think every early Porsche fan should drive a [B]well sorted[B] 356 at least once, I have a 56 speedster that is just so much fun to drive, I grin whenever I'm in it, I also have a 60 super90, and I had a 65 SC. the key thing to remember with these cars is that they are old old old, you can't compare one that has been totally gone through with one that might just look pretty. A,B,C, which one? The A's are charming and very pretty, C's disk brakes, power. B's an overlooked gem, My B is so much better handling, shifting, ride, than my speedster. In my opinion the disk brakes on the C are no better than drum brake cars, provided the drums are round, the cylinders are new and every think is adjusted properly. Everyone also thinks they are under powered, again, many people that have driven one, drove some worn out car, or poorly rebuilt motor; There are so many hack motors out there. Have a motor built buy a well known builder, with a solid reputation in the 356 community. Also remember, the hp ratings are in DIN, 95hp=118hp. I'm having a hot rod 65SC motor built for my speedster, and its going to smoke a lot of early 911s.
I went on a 6 hour rally last summer, 75 Porsches, (I was one of two 356s) all blasting through the Maryland back roads, I was keeping up with all of them, no problem. OK, I was foot to the floor at 10 10/s, they were chatting, and playing their Ipods. Proving again its more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

[Richard]

Jason,
You need to drive both a 356 and an early 911 to see what you like. Both are great cars but very different. My experience is with one 1960 356 Super 90 and a number of early 911 cars. I bought the Super 90 in 1969 after returning home from Vietnam. I'd never had a Porsche before and I had some money saved up from a year where I couldn't spend it. A VW mechanic friend rebuilt the S90 motor. It was terrific. It came up on the cams like nothing I'd ever experienced. But it had rust...which I had no experience with, and I was on a budget and so I sold it and bought a VW and went back to college on the GI bill. Some years later I purchased a '72 911T. It drove great, had good power and was a nice daily driver. After that, like a lot of us, I got into time trialing, then racing, etc. and I owned a number of early 911's. A couple of years ago a friend gave me a ride in his almost perfect 356 C coupe. I got in. The doors fit like doors on a safe. It ran perfectly. But...I was amazed. I felt like I was riding in my old college VW. It was a great car but far different from an early 911. My suggestion is to drive several 356 and early 911 cars and see what you like. Both are fabulous cars but very different. At this point (early 2008) neither a 356 or an early 911 is likely to be your daily driver. So pick the one you like the most. You won't go wrong with either one (maybe you could buy one of each?). b.t.w. I'm very happy with my early 911 cars but I sure wish I could have my old Super 90 back too.

Let us know what you end up with. Best of luck. Watch out for rust.

R.

[sithot]

You can love them both but for different reasons. Everyone should own at least one 356.
The "A"s are the prettiest as Ed has already pointed out.
SC's are a nice cars and will give a good accounting if set up properly.

My choice would be an outlas "A" with later suspension and brakes and a Jake Raby Type IV engine. Big torque and nice hp with good reliability.
Make mine a 5 speed.

Best,

Tom

[Fritter]

I have driven A, B and C 356's and I have a '68 SWB 911. The 356 interior is similar to the early 911 as far as a surprising amount of space, but the appointments are "older" feeling. A 356 in well sorted shape is very fun to drive, has a very tossable feel around corners. My '68 has the same sort of tossable feel, but it feels more "planted" to the ground than a 356.

And of course, the flat 6 engine is a much different animal than the 356 flat four.

A 356 is kind of VW like, but it drives much smoother, lower to the ground, and handles better. And this is no dig on VW's, I love them too, I have a '65 Bug.

Both the 356 and 911 are great, it just depends what you want!

[lisa_spyder]

Hi Jason,

My personal views only here, tainted by my dear departed Dad's views too no doubt, but he knew more about 356s than most could dream of knowing and had done over 1,000,000 miles in them over many years (no kidding!).

A really great (fit) 356 is a pure joy - they like to be revved, not coddled and they love to be driven. 356s will go where no 911 can - their "swing back axle" design and "antiquated" suspension allows them to traverse really rough roads at speed. Much like a VeeDub, but with more grunt!

My personal "standard" 356 would be a late A (soft synchro gearbox) or twin grille B - but not a S90. IMHO the S75 engine in standard form is by far the most free-revving and fun to drive.

These are drivers' cars; much like early 911s. But there is much to be wary of. 356s are treble-panelled in places and they have a tendency to rust from the inside out. I know - we used to restore them as part of our business activities for many years and it was not uncommon to put 2500 hours into a body before paint . Mind you, we would cut them to pieces (literally) and start over - labour of love doesn't even begin to describe...

Traffic these days and the lack of really good brake linings for drum brakes (the 356 used Energit 999 linings originally - same compound as was used on the freight trains in Germany at the time or so Dad told me) means disc brakes are really a must. However, I prefer the more sporty ride of a late A or late B over the softer ride of a C or SC - again my personal choice.

The perfect rule of thumb for getting the best out of a fit 356 is to drive within the "green band" of the tacho. These little engines have next to no torque and do NOT like to be laboured at low revs - they have a tendency to break crankshafts when driven at very low revs (have done countless engine rebuilds for guys who drove them "quietly" - broken cranks are not fun).

The factory service schedule should be adhered to - a minor service every 1500 miles, a medium service every 3000 miles and a major every 6000 miles. If you're planning on doing lots of miles every year then you'll either be "at the shop" a lot or will learn very quickly how to do at least the basic 1500 miles service yourself.

356s have grease points (nipples) particularly in the front end that cannnot and should not be ignored. The front end should be greased every 1500 miles as per the service schedule. Invest in a good grease gun and grease her up regularly!

Do not "punish" a 356 TM. Do not load up the clutch and dump it on take off or you will find out how expensive first gear really is. They can be surprisingly quick through the gears, but roll off the start always.

Most cars had 6 bolt crownwheel and pinions - and most of those hopefully have been replaced by the Carrera 12 bolt versions by now. The 6 bolters just don't last - they crystalise and break and simply don't do the job.

Straight out speed isn't earth-shattering; but how you get there is what counts . A really fit car mechanically can be driven very hard for long periods - they come into their own in twisty terrain and yes, will stay with most very fit 911s until the road opens up and you run out of revs to stay with the "younger set" !

Coupe vs Cab - A coupes have the most beautiful lines but are hard to see out of as both the front and rear screens are smaller than the T6s. Late A Cabs - well if you can look after the soft-top and have a good one to start with you're OK. I would however suggest that if you take a liking to a Cab that you find yourself a hardtop for the wetter/cooler weather as the soft-tops don't demist so well...that said personal preference for me will always be a 60 B Roadster. Super 75 engine, wind-up windows and "rag-top" - bliss!

If you like the "Cab" or "Roadster" look but don't want to be bothered with a soft-top then you could consider a Knotchback...they are very pretty cars.

Now to "apples and oranges". A 356 will outrun a 911 over rough roads - hell a friend of mine passed me years ago pulling 100mph in his 356 whilst I was trying to pick my way over the potholes in a pretty quick 911 - hell he passed EVERYBODY and was on his third beer by the time we all caught him!

A 356 is more spacious inside than a 911 - more headroom and more legroom in the back for the little passengers.

Fit ones are awesome; unfit ones are positively dreadful. Look beyond the fresh paint job and great interior re-trim - they can all look great from 10 paces (same goes for 911s of course).

A word of caution - 356s bite and hard if you're game to push them through the twisties; the old adage of "when in doubt put your foot down" will keep you out of mischief in the middle of a corner. DO NOT LIFT OFF or you will find yourself ass-about very quickly.

911s have more grunt - period. They have longer service schedules and 2 more cylinders (and mostly another gear)! They have amazing charisma and the fit ones can make the little hairs at the base of my neck stand on end - but then on a good day so can a fit 356 .

Best advice I can give is to go and drive as many of both as you can - each car has its own personality and only after trialling many will you know which does "it" for you. And has been said here many. many times before...buy the very best you can afford.

Good luck - I have ranted for long enough; very happy to offer more pearls of wisdom about 356s particularly by PM if needed...