Ultimate ST thread

[Yellow491]

Do you have any clear images of the breather bottle retaining brackets at all?

Also it is not entirely clear whether the factory spot welded the fuel flap shut (if this is what you are referring to) on all the 21 M491 S’s as it was present on at least three (0934, 0955 and 0983 - see below)

Attachment 619553
0934

Attachment 619550
Attachment 619551
0955

Attachment 619552
0983

Matt

Referring to the inner wing where the fuel filler pipe would have gone to on a standard fuel tank,rsr also.

[Leirbag]

Attachment 619552
0983

Oh, that's the picture I found on the internet a few month ago ; )

Here is a picture of 0955 at Le Mans 1972 :




Thank you Hugh, Matteo for your findings and knowledge, that's really interesting to read and to think about.

[HughH]

Yes, that´s very possible that the sports department finished the car with all details.
From my understanding, the -72 small series of 21+ identical cars were made right from the beginning on the build sheet in the body shop.
There´s metalwork on the body you can only do when the body/shell is being built up and not like prior ST:s that most likely got an "body in white"
from Karmann and they started to modify it in the racing department.
An example is the covered fuel hole that goes through the front frame. On 2.5 factory ST/SR:s it´s spot welded and that´s only possible before the frame is put
together. Another example is the small brackets holding the oil breather bottle in the engine compartment. It´s also spot welded from two sides, and it makes no sense
doing that when all other panels are there or when the engine is there and the body is painted.

BTW, some great posts by HughH

My understanding i that all of the 21 cars in 1972 were built completely from scratch in the customer race department (unlike in previous years and possibly for the 1972 factory "ST's" where they started life on the normal production line) This even extended to the vin stamping of the 21 cars which was done on a totally separate machine to the production line vins). this is another unique feature of these 21 cars

[HughH]

Baudett in reference to your post #978

· No I don’t think there was a “stock” car as you describe waiting in a warehouse with gearbox but no engine installed etc
There is no date showing on what we can see of the original order for the car (AUTOMOBIL-BESTELLUNG) but the commentary with it in 2019 says “On March 27th, 1972, the fur dealer and Porsche racing driver Claus Utz from Reutlingen signed the order for the Porsche 9112301081 on February 3rd, 1972 with "911s old car" "for 25,002.75 DM deposited at the "Sportwagenzentrum für VW and Porschefahzeuge Autohaus Max Moritz GmbH", today's Porsche Center Neckar-Alb as 911S, type "T" (see order) in 6161 Gulf Orange with 12 corduroy seats

To me that says the original order for the car (AUTOMOBIL-BESTELLUNG) was placed, and probably dated in a cropped off part, on February 3 when Utz provided a deposit in the form of a 911S valued at 25,000 DM, and then the paperwork with Max Moritz was signed by Utz on 27 March 1972 when the car was delivered to Max Moritz.

· That car was built (from production number 102 4080) with engine number 632 1607 and gearbox number 7326765 and “Delivered to Hahn Porsche central warehouse on March 1, 1972”

· It was then delivered from Hahn to Max Moritz on 27 March 1972

· However, the description also says that “The wagon had already been produced at the time of the order, was in stock in the central warehouse at Hahn, Stuttgart and was delivered to Max Moritz according to the invoice for 28424.04 DM including 11% VAT”

I don’t know what that means but it may refer to the fact that when the invoice to Max Moritz from Hahn was done the car was already at the Hahn warehouse OR when Utz signed the paperwork with Max Moritz I was already completed. Otherwise, it does not make sense to me and MAY be a misinterpretation by the person who wrote the document.

MY best GUESS is that Utz made a deposit for the car at Max Moritz on February 3 with the trade in of another 911S. At that stage Max Moritz placed the order for the car via Hahn with Porsche. The car was produced and delivered to Hahn on about March 1 and then went to Max Moritz on 27 March at which time Utz went to Maz Moritz and signed the paperwork for the order.

I do not understand why the Max Moritz invoice for it seems to have a 31 December 1972 date on it. It also shows the trade in values of the 911S and a 914/4 and another car during the year starting 3 February with the last one on 22 June 1972.

ONE POSSIBLE explanation is that as the car was essentially paid for with trade ins, AND the value of the trade-ins was 146.72DM more that the cost of the car, the paperwork was not completed and dated until the end of the financial year which, in Germany, is December 31. Utz certainly competed in the car from as early as July 1972 at Nurburgring.

If this timeline is correct “who pays for it” is obviously Utz with the initial trade in. I am sure that as a very wealthy fur trader with a history of having Porsche’s his credit at Max Moritz for the balance would have been good.

I will try to address the other issues about “911S Typ “T”” later but on the point about the 2.5 M491 cars being provided with a KFZ, the answer is NO as the factory made it clear that these were not allowed to be road registered as they were pure race cars and obviously would not need a registration document. However as with all these things there are exceptions: rally cars need to be road registered and there were probably three of those: 0495, 0550 and 0538. Of those 0550 was not going to be registered in Germany so did not need a KFZ, 0538 was also being exported and SHOULD have been registered for the Targa Florio but none of the photos there show it as ever having any registration plates.

On the other hand, 0495 WAS registered in Stuttgart, or at least was wearing Stuttgart plates (S-AJ 9233) at the Acropolis and other places while a rally car. So theoretically it should have had a KFZ. Interestingly in the documents I have for 0538 there is a note “ohne KfZ-Brief, Gutachten” or without vehicle registration document, Appraise” but there is no note for 0495.

On KFZ papers for “M471” cars in 1972 I would expect that ALL of those had the correct light weight and any other approved modifications shown in the KFZ document. I have a copy of a part of a KFZ document for a 1971 ST built on a lightweight shell. It clearly states the modified weight of that car at 930kg as well as the stock wheels and tires crossed out and “The vehicle may be equipped with the following tires at the front and rear Racing 5.00M 15 tires and 6J x 15 wheels” 2301081 would certainly have has a KFZ as it was road registered in Germany with various plate number under different owners for its whole life.

[HughH]

Baudett
In post #978 you ask about the “T” specification, in particular about its apparent use in the description “911 S Typ “T”“ used in 1972, and I presume the handwritten T found on (many?/maybe all?) Fahrzeug-Auftrag documents for “ST’s.”

These can be seen in all “ST” years – 1970 to 1972. In the document for 911 030 1151 in the Fahrzeug-typ (or vehicle type) box. There is a typed “911 S Coupe” and then a large hand written “T”.

As you note in the order for 230 1081 we also see what appears to be an order for a vehicle type "911S Typ "T"" or as described in accompanying paperwork 911S with “T” race-specification.

That specification is further described as being comprised (in 1972) of light-weight body, thin glass, alu trunk lid, sport seats, 5 speed gearbox, front spoiler and anti-roll bars.
We know that in 1970 the “base” 911 S was built as a stripped-out car as a base for a race version and then was optioned up for sales as a road car with option M470, but in the 1971 MY that process was reversed as the 911S was already homologated at the low 1970 weight and option M471 was used to take the fully trimmed car back to like a 1970 base car.
In 1972, and beyond, the M471 option and process continued as a means of stripping back a car that was normally specified as more of a luxury car. Even the full race M490 cars had in their specification M471 AND M490 as the M471 dealt with the weight removal etc. as shown below.

We also know that Porsche often used codes or descriptions to bundle up a specified number of options for a particular purpose. The most widely used is a country code that contained all the options/ modifications required in each particular country to meet their regulations. However, there were others including an option to “upgrade” the trim of a T to E or S specifications etc.

According to the 1971 document on Sports use for the 1972 season, that Matt posted the link to above, the M471 cars were designed that, despite modification, as cars that can still b registered for road traffic (including under different regulations in different countries), as opposed to vehicles designed as pure racing vehicles that can only be used for circuit racing and whose approval for the road is not possible (the M491 Cars) and
That the M471 option was itself a bundle of items including:
· 80% locking limited slip diff (option M220 by itself)
· Tachometer up to 10,000rpm
· 380mm leather steering wheel
· Lightened body design consisting of:
o Attachment points for Sports seat belts
o Reinforcement for assembly of the safety bar
o Front and rear bumpers without horns
o Instead of decorative and rubber strips on the bumpers, Tesa tape on the front and rear bumpers
o Rubber quick-release fasteners for hoods on the front and back
o PORSCHE lettering decal on the back
o Simplified interior:
§ boards; door lock operation; carpet; dashboard;
o PORSCHE lettering decals in place of decorative strips under the doors on the left and right
o Underbody protection and sound insulation mats are not required

Then other accessories such as fuel tank, suspension, seats etc were separately specified off the options list

I THINK that in 1972 (at least) the apparent use of a “model type” called 911S Typ “T” was a shorthand attempt to distinguish the base 911S competition model including option M471 and possibly bundled with more options, but at least being available with more “sports purpose” options. It is possible that, at least at the factory customer sport department, there was a special “911S Typ “T”” option list that included all the options that may be required for competition cars of any sort apart from from the “production model “911S 2.5 M491.

It is quite clear however that that designation had been used on internal documents such as build sheets and probably order sheets since at least 1970 MY BUT they were very careful in all their documentation to make sure that it was called a 911S for homologation purposes with the “Typ T” used to describe a sub model or group of options suited more for competition. What that stood for – if anything - would be interesting to know.

[matteo68]

Hugh

1019 was a rally car too wasn’t it? (Julio Gargallo in Spain) with registration 857 Z 4481.


0495 had registration AAV 911 and 1195 had registration TÖL-Y 25. 0538 took part in the Targa Florio as you say along with 0818 and 0872 and none of them wore registration plates. I’m not sure that the Targa Florio could be considered a rally actually as they did several laps of the 44 mile circuit - the only reason that the cars started at 15 second intervals being down to the fact that the start line was too narrow to fit more than one car alongside each other. This account by Michael Keyser’s article in ‘Vintage Motorsport’ magazine is insightful:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/omjvi...zoktosqjf&dl=0

Matt

[HughH]

Yes Matt 1019 was used in rallies - both initially in Germany at the rally Bosch in 1972 and then in Spain. It is questionable if it was ever officially registered. It wore Zoll plates both in Germany and later in Spain and at least until the 1976 Monte Carlo it was wearing the same Zoll plates. In my view for all but the first 3 or 6 months (I am not sure how long the Zoll plates were valid for at that time) it was unregistered despite being raced on public roads. According to Baudett it is now registered as a "SC" in Spain but it would be interesting to know if it could be legally registered as a 2.5 M491 car.

With 1195 I agree that it has almost always worn the TOL Y 25 plates. Fischhaber had a number of cars all registered similarly such as TOL L 520 and TOL U 52. He even had a Gp5 BMW with TOL plates on it at Mugello in 1979, TOL XC 57 - there is no way that could be road registered so maybe it was a "thing" with him to put TOL plates on a car registered or not. Again TOL Y 25 was almost exclusively used for track and hill climb events neither of which required the car to be road registered if transported to the event. So it may never have been legally registered in Germany despite wearing those plates but it would be interesting to know
Despite the "not allowed to be registered for the road" decree from Porsche (and I assume the TUV) I know of a number of these cars that are road registered (usually on club plates or similar) these days.

[matteo68]

Oh, that's the picture I found on the internet a few month ago ; )

Here is a picture of 0955 at Le Mans 1972 :




Thank you Hugh, Matteo and Baudett for your findings and knowledge, that's really interesting to read and to think about.

Hi Gabriel

That’s a great shot of 0955 in the paddock and shows one of the GeLo mechanics painting the race number issued during scrutineering on the bonnet (it was unloaded wearing no number - see presentation photo below) but in the event it only wore this for practice as Jean Sage withdrew his 911 S with #44 after practice, joined Loos and brought #44 with him along with his sponsors:

[niall1]

So here’s an interesting one - I was trawling through Porsche News on their website, particularly for the history of the S/T in connection with the new 992 S/T and found a reference to M494 ‘Rally’ option in 1972…

MY72 Competition Spares List:

3. Front and rear stone protection plates on underside;

Attachment 619537
(FIA 3025 Homologation - stone protection plates - photos 9&10)

Attachment 619538
(‘72MY 911 S Competition Spares List - stone protection plates)

These parts are also on my car. Richard Reventlow referred to these and the wing flares as a Rally Pack that he bought, along with the other (effectively) Group 4 parts that he purchased from the factory, when he planned the car's build with Helmutt Bott in Autumn '72.

It's fascinating to read the above posts, but Porsche was a much smaller company back then and customers got whatever they were willing to pay for. The original base for my car was an E (because Lance thought the S would be too highly strung to be reliable at altitude in the Colorado Rockies) but the car was spec'd with Koni shocks, Michelin tyres, different anti roll bars, forged lightweight wheels. So anything is possible. I don't think back in the 1960's and 70's that there was a truly 'standard' car as these cars weren't mass produced in the context that we think of today.

[matteo68]

Referring to the inner wing where the fuel filler pipe would have gone to on a standard fuel tank,rsr also.

You’re quite right Paul.

Standard shell:



M491 shell (0495):