development of the ducktail

[Chuck Miller]

Raj, and all...

I have a copy of a 12 page Porsche Audi U.S. Sales Department Bulletin No. 72/98

Dated Dec. 6, 1972
From Volkswagen Pacific Inc.

It's basically dealer order form for the RS's in all their forms, with all their specs, and all their options. These cars could be ordered and bought here.... just not registered.

It states that the Carrera RS
- CONVERSION ORDER 471 - Dealer Net Price P.O.E. Los Angeles - (approx.) $9,750
- CONVERSION ORDER 472 - $10,250
- CONVERSION ORDER 491 - $18,600

It also states the approx. Top Speed for the RS was - 245km - 152mph

Here's the cover page.....



Hope this helps,
Chuck

[fryardds]

Hi Chuck,

Very interesting document, thanks for sharing. I would really like to see the additional pages of this if possible. I wonder if the RS was supposed to have AL doors at some point and that plan was dropped or maybe they were mis-informed when this was printed.

[HughH]

Raj

the caption on the series of photos in the RS book from which your 2 were taken is that it was tests on a series production car on January 19, 1973: well after the car was in existence.
they were testing various combinations and shapes of rear spoiler including a wider one with holes on the sides. see photos.
I think that this is about the time they tested the Mary Stuart spoiler on the Martini cars at Paul Ricard before running them in group 5 at Spa, Monza and the targa. Then between the Targa and Le mans they did the wind tunnel tests on the Mary Stuart (i think on 911 360 0002 see additional photo)

I will put photos of the paris show car in the next post. The final shape of the ducktail does not seem to have been determined until August 1972 (and as i have posted above somewhere It was not approved even then by the licencing authorities for general use.

I saw the label - I tried to blow it up to read the number on 3 or 4 different shots of it but I could not get the detail. I think, as I said on the targa thread, it might be a sticker that identifies the car without looking at the VIN while in the test and development department. The one on R2 was in old DYMO tape and seemed to say R2 on it as well as some other ID

[HughH]

Raj

the Paris show car was 9113600016 later registered as LEO ZA 64

here are some pictures

I THINK it can be recognized at Paris and around that time by the "CARRERA" on what would normally be a license plate. It is also does not have a conversion number so may be a RSH. regardless it appears from the outside to be like a M471 with tape on the bumpers etc.

the colour one is a contemporary one and has all the features of the Paris car.

At the Geneva show there was a M472 car, still in blue and white but with ""Porsche Carrera RS" on the licence plate

[HughH]

Hi hugh


My understanding was that the regular range was going to remain 2.4litreS.The above car was orginally going to be designated as a 2.7S but marketing resurrected the name carrera(Bott's involvement) and RS to further differentiate the car.Would that not make this a RS prototype?In essence this car had all the spirit of the RS without the name.


Raj

Raj

my understanding from a couple of sources, including the RS book, as mentioned above was that the 2.7 project was well underway when it was stopped in favor of the RS project. However both of these had a lot in common, including the fact that the 2.7 was going to be positioned above the 2.4S and in addition to the 2.4S. Apart from the engine the main (Only?) differences to the 2.4S were going to be wider tyres at the rear and wider rear guards.

I would be interested in others comments but MY understanding is that it was the release of the new homologation rules for the following year that changed the plans and saw the 911S2.7 project be replaced with the RS project.

To get any advantage from them the car had to be homologated a a much lower weight than the 911S or proposed S2.7, and the only way to do that under the new rules was with a genuine production run of lightweight cars.

In the past with the ST's etc the demand from hard core teams had been for less than 100 cars per series, which would not stack up under the new rules.

there is correspondence published in several books that show the marketing people were against selling a stripped down racer (as they had been with the 911R to its eternal detriment as it always had to run in prototype class) - they needed to sell 500 units.

they argued that they could not introduce both the 911S2.7 and a lightweight version of it (the RS) as the customers would not buy the lightweight version.

they predicted that could sell some 1200 series production 2.7's of which about 450 would be targas.

they said that IF the lightweight version was introduced about 500 of the remaining 750 (ie 1200 less the 450 targas) cars sold would have to be lightweights to meet the new homologation rules (group 4).

They wanted to put off the launch of a lightweight version (with a 2.9 engine) until the next year and effectively put an ultimatum to the rest of the company.

As a result of this Fuhrmann made a decision to scrap the 911S2.7 and its targa version for the 73 model year and go only with the lightweight version - ie the RS. This need for the light weight was the core of the complex production process and double order process that saw RSH's made, weighed and then converted until 1000 cars (but no RSR's as the body modifications made them too heavy) had been through this process.


Only at this stage did they set about choosing a new name and end out with Carrera and RS. This was a part of a significant marketing push to try and make the car attractive as they fundamentally did not believe in it. Also they could not call it Carrera on its own as they had already decided to use that name in 1974 and wanted to differentiate this car from their "new car" for 1974.

so from my point of view the original (stillborn) S2.7 cars may have shared DNA with the RS but they did not have the same philosophy and purpose - so I would argue that they did NOT have "all the spirit of the RS without the name" as the spirit is defined by their purpose and the purpose of the original car was more grand tourer than racer.

(In part answer to your price question , as a part of the sales department "panic" about selling the new car the price was capped at about DM35,000about DM1,000 less than the planned S2.7 despite much higher production costs)

[Chuck Miller]

Raj,

I think the difference in the price between the R&T article is the price from the bulletin I posted was for dealer net price P.O.E. (probably Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey) to Los Angeles......


Hugh,

I believe #0016 is still owned by SoCal 356 collector, PCA concour judge, and POC racer Richard Price. Richard was campaigning #16 in POC time trials up until a few years ago. I also believe Richard then sent the car to New England where it has been undergoing a VERY extensive restoration for the last few years....

Cheers

[HughH]

"Test on the C-series car has indicated that a not notable reduction in rear end lift could be obtained by using a cut-off tail with a flatter engine compartment top,but such a drastic body modification was not considered either practical or desirable.

From paul frere

So,it seems the factory knew before the RS was conceived.

Raj

raj here are a couple of photos from the RS book on (I think) the tests Frere mentions
they were on an ST on 27 to 29 April 1970 !

i reminds me a bit of a Lancia Beta at the rear

[HughH]

Chuck

that is interesting
thanks

the last I have a mention of it in my database was in Feb 1996 where it was shown as being sold at an auction in Monterey.

[HughH]

Raj

i think we basically agree although I would place more emphasis on the ST's and the lightweight cars of 1970 or so as being the the prototypes or spiritual ancestors of the RS and in particular the RSR

[HughH]

While we are (somewhat) on the subject of the 911S2.7's here is a picture of one that retains its identity - ie has a non RS chassis number.

I have read that there were only 3 911S2.7's but I don't know if that includes RS 0012 or not (I assume not, as it has a RS identity regardless of what it looks like).

I also don't know if it includes the 2 ST's noted as factory twin plug 2.7's on the list of 1972 ST's that Raj posted. Again I assume not.

However THIS car shown below is a factory 911S2.7 and it is on the ST list Raj posted (and is on the ST thread) but with question marks against it, and without the engine number.

It was Michael Piech’s car 911 230 1514 that also got a "special" paint treatment and even more "special" interior

It had a Narrow body, although a wider body was to be a part of the 2.7 programme, no rear spoiler, and was built in 1972. The engine is a RS type but transmission is a 1972 production version.

It was been on display at the Technical Museum in Vienna over the winter 2007 / 2008, and details were posted on this board last year sometime.

note the black window trim- maybe experimenting for 1974?

does anyone else know the identity of the other 911S2.7 cars?