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  1. #1
    Senior Member 911T1971's Avatar
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    German market 1970S predated 73RS concept ?

    Recently I read an unique german Porsche test report - published in april 1970 - portraying the 2.2litre models.

    They quote that "the 1970 911S was german delivered in standard version as a
    -sport-911S including Recaro buckets, pull straps on door panels, lightweight bumpers, 110l tank w center fill, no rear scripts, spacesaver spare etc.
    It also could be ordered with a special "comfort" equippement “similar to the 911E” including radio etc.
    The test also states the 911S was planned as a competition car while 911T and 911E would be for a larger export client base".
    -
    While Piech could not push the 1968 911R behond a race car homologation as he wished for, the 1970 911S would be based on a new idea :
    *911S "comfort-E"
    *911S "sport-S"
    *911S "GT4 / S/T"
    This would predate the 1973RS concept with touring, light and homologation cars since it was already thought out in late 1969.
    Shure the 73RS was another car with larger 2.7l engine, ducktail and larger rear wheels but almost everything else was around for sale on a standard 1970 911S, three years before.
    -
    Comments on this board refer this white 911 always as a base for S/T models but maybe it was not but rather a german 1970 911S in its standard -sport-version for sale at 28'749 Deutschmark !


    Interior shot, most likely from a late MY69 prototype model.
    No glovebox and no radio.


    Most likely red 911S which interior we see above, MY69.
    Last edited by 911T1971; 07-02-2011 at 12:27 PM.
    Registry member No.773

  2. #2

    Homologation 1970S lightweight

    Karim:

    Interesting article!

    The lightweight version of the 70S was catalogued for the German domestic market only and was the basis for the FIA homologation weight of 978 KG.

    There is a paragraph in Ludvigsen's Excellence Was Expected which describes the background of the factory's decision to build the car and its lightweight specifications. As you rightly point out, the simplified door panels of the RS were just another bit out of the existing parts bin left over from the German market base S.

    In order to order the 70S to this specification, one would have checked the box for Option Code M470 delete, which left off most of the standard road going equipment.

    Other details carried over to the RS L include the deletion of the glove box door and passenger sun visor. However, unlike the RS L, the standard clock remained.
    These cars had front and rear bumpers in ALU in addition to the ALU engine lid and license panel.

    That is the first interior photo of the lightweight S that I have seen. Thanks for posting. Are there any other pics in the article?

    Tom
    Early 911S Registry
    Looking for engine 960 168
    Looking for gear box 103 165

  3. #3
    So, the 1970 German market 1970 911S would be the first 911"ST"- acknowledging the fact that "911ST" was probably not an official designation, more like factory shorthand. This would be the "narrow body" raced before the more famous flares developed in 1971/1972 and after the short wheelbase 911R, 911TR, 911L in Trans-Am, etc.

    Is this correct?
    1971 911S, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened
    Early 911S Registry Member #425

  4. #4
    Hello Flieger:

    I think the type 911S lightweight would have been the perfect car for Group 3 racing.

    However, in 1970 and 1971, for the FIA's Special GT Group 4 category, the MY 70 German market base 911S should be considered as perhaps no more than a good beginning point to use "all special parts for the car type 911S to be reconstructed to a competition car."

    But, as the reconstruction with all those special parts was a very extensive process, almost any 911 was a suitable basis for the conversion, as demonstrated by the Kremer brothers who used T chassis for their very successful 2,3 and 2,5 cars in 1970-72.

    Perhaps we should think of the MY70 lightweight 911S as being analogous to the 2,7 RS H. It was the basis for the race department to get the FIA to allow a minimum weight for the homologation of type.

    Tom
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Early 911S Registry
    Looking for engine 960 168
    Looking for gear box 103 165

  5. #5

    Smile

    So, the German market 911S was the homologation weight for the 911S for GT racing across Europe. Would someone be kind enough to post the homologation weights for the 911T and 911S for 1970/1971? If I recall correctly, the 911T was homologated lighter. If Porsche went this far in weight reduction on the 911S, why not go below the 911T?

    I suppose what you are telling me is that the superior "S" equipment such as sway bars, wheels/tires, Aluminum engine lid, nitrided connecting rods (?), balanced crankshaft, etc. is what made the 911S heavier than the 911T when in equally sparce interior trim. These "S" pieces would be replaced on either car by even better "competition" spec parts. Therefore, homologating a 911T lighter just allowed more weight reduction elsewhere (by removing interior entirely) for competition to compensate for the upgraded running gear. Hence, 911"S/T"

    The lightweight thin steel tubs produced in 1969 would be for model year 1970? Were the chassis numbers known? Did these stay with factory race department? Were they 911Ts or 911S?

    Thanks to you (all) for taking time to answer my questions; I am young but interested in learning more details about these amazing cars. I would certainly be interested in any books you knowledgeable individuals chose to write- the RSR thread, 911ST thread, and this thread would be great subjects.

    Attached Images Attached Images     
    1971 911S, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened
    Early 911S Registry Member #425

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flieger View Post
    So, the German market 911S was the homologation weight for the 911S for GT racing across Europe. Would someone be kind enough to post the homologation weights for the 911T and 911S for 1970/1971? If I recall correctly, the 911T was homologated lighter. If Porsche went this far in weight reduction on the 911S, why not go below the 911T?

    I suppose what you are telling me is that the superior "S" equipment such as sway bars, wheels/tires, Aluminum engine lid, nitrided connecting rods (?), balanced crankshaft, etc. is what made the 911S heavier than the 911T when in equally sparce interior trim. These "S" pieces would be replaced on either car by even better "competition" spec parts. Therefore, homologating a 911T lighter just allowed more weight reduction elsewhere (by removing interior entirely) for competition to compensate for the upgraded running gear. Hence, 911"S/T"

    The lightweight thin steel tubs produced in 1969 would be for model year 1970? Were the chassis numbers known? Did these stay with factory race department? Were they 911Ts or 911S?

    Thanks to you (all) for taking time to answer my questions; I am young but interested in learning more details about these amazing cars. I would certainly be interested in any books you knowledgeable individuals chose to write- the RSR thread, 911ST thread, and this thread would be great subjects.

    Name:  911S Nordschlieffe Zeiss diving kurve.jpg
Views: 771
Size:  59.2 KB

    This thread pops up now and then when I search for stuff, and this car always intrigues me. At first I thought it looked really nice and friendly in light blue with its yellow nose. And the location of Brucke Breidscheid on the Nordschleife looked too familiar as I've got a few footsteps there. And tiremarks. Started looking for a high res. Car 104 in GT's during the 1969 1000km rennen was Hans-Dieter Weigel. Now that name sounded familiar too, but previously I just associated him with 907s and 908s and 917s.

    Then I found this about the car: http://www.racingsportscars.com/chas...Weigel%23.html
    Seems started at 1000km of Monza, the Targa Florio and 1000km Nurburgring all within six weeks? Interesting Listed a #84 at Targa....

    A bit later I found these. Obviously not mine, found them on www.targapedia.com

    Name:  84 Porsche 911 T  H.Weigel - A.Von Hohenzollern Box (1).jpg
Views: 768
Size:  97.7 KB

    Name:  84 Porsche 911 T H.Weigel - A.Von Hohenzollern (1).jpg
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Size:  72.3 KB

    Hmm, so much for that cute yellow nose. Scratch that, make it works Gulf livery. Me stupid! Looking back at the previously posted Nurburgring photo you can actually see the black roundels of the Targa numbers under the 104 square numbers.

    Has the car ever surfaced after '69? The car is listed in every log I could find as a 911T. Must be a pretty trick T The oldest photo I've found is May 1969, but she's listed as also running Monza in April 1969. And what's she doing in the 1970S Leichtbau thread. Does she deserve a thread of her own? Has some DNF's but a very interesting and pretty intensive season!

  7. #7
    I came across this intriguing article on Pistonheads from 2012 on the discovery of one of these lightweight Sport S cars by Josh Sadler of Autofarm. Being right hand drive we can safely say they were made for the UK market. Too bad there are no photos of the interior. It will be great to see the car once it's restored.

    Here's the article and pictures for future reference as well as the link to the whole article.

    http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...ryId=26193.htm

    A Barn Find to Die For

    It's not the highly polished, hermetically sealed machines that has sees Josh really animated though. Instead, what to the untrained eye looks like nothing more than an old, in need of restoration 911 is Josh's next project. It's a car he sold in the 80s, knowing then that it was a bit special, but not having taken the time to research it properly. Curiosity got the better of Josh a few years ago and he sought out the sales document and found the seller and the car was found languishing at the bottom of the garden under a tarpaulin.

    Still unsure exactly what it was, Josh "took a punt," getting it out requiring the removal of a fence. It was worth the effort. The pared back trim, the lightweight door panels, lightweight carpets and tacho that reads up to 10,000rpm, along with some further research revealed it to be a 911 S Sport, sometimes referred to as an ST.

    Josh's find is a car with provenance, too, having driven in the 1971 Circuit of Ireland, it is thought to be the only ST officially brought into the country. It arrived via a Northern Irish dealer and was driven by Reggie McSpadden. Some digging found its registration to be dormant, and the car was driven over to Northern Ireland to be inspected, where it was given it original registration back. It's been stripped since and awaits restoration, though with other projects are keeping him busy enough.

    A garden find 911, now nestling in a barn owned by a man who farms Porsches? You couldn't make it up. And that RSR recreation? We'll take that one next time...
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