mods options and values. Questions

[jonnyw]

Some of you may know Im building a secret 72 Hot Rod. It had some serious rust issues that were taking care of and it's almost back from paint. Obviously it will never be worth the time and effort as so many cars we do are however the question is on the values. Where does the strong value lie when we create these special one of cars. Obviously when your building a car and its a special long hood 911 you try to only do things to help keep the value. (At least some people do)

For example a simple low level nice original driver 72T with careful restoration is realistically worth 25k and up. Even at 25k its not a quick sell in this market.

Now really lets say a 72T has sport seats, Deep Sixes Cibie's and every other possible crazy expensive option we can put on a 72T. If you were to sell a car like do you expect it to sell considerable more than a nice original T or less?

Thats the question I would like to get some opinions on. The car Im building, is a no-expense kind of project. I am building a car that I want to build, not to sell but to enjoy show track, whatever. Sure is it overkill my god yes but that enjoyment that I will get from it will far surpass the costs ( I Hope)

Some of you here have done similar things, taken a simple Ts and turned them into some of the best looking cars on this board.

When it's all said and done, was it worth it. Do you regret dumping tons of money into a T instead of an S?

By the time Im done I don't even want to begin to add up all the cash that has been thrown into it. I dont care. Im chompin at the bit to get it on the road. !!

What if I get bored with the car in 2-3 years and I want to sell it and build another even better hot rod. Realistically where do you see the value with these projects.

I look at what that little 912R was going for and it seems to change owners faster than a Hummer right now. That car was absolutely fantastic to look at. Why did it change hands so many times? Is that one of those things where you spend tons of cash go drive it for a couple weeks and go my god WTF was I thinking 50k for a 912 and I could've bought a 190HP S!!

Are we crazy? Yeah we are!! I will by the time this is all said and done have ehh 40k if I were to count my hours in a little 72T. It will never be worth 40k nor will it ever sell for 40k right... So why do we do this to ourselves?

Where's the value lie? Are you better off just to build a 100% factory correct 811T dream car or is there some sort of value building and turning a T into something even more special.

Whats your thoughts? Again Im not having 2nd thoughts, Im totally excited how this little project is turning out, I didn't do it as some sort of investment, I did it to build what I consider the best darn little longhood I possible could.

Well?

[hoffman912]

well in the case of the yellow 912R i know it went from one flipper to another who planned on buying it to flip again. it is a fantastic car from what i hear.. i *may* get to drive it this fall if i can make it out west for an event. still not sure if i can swing it with work and bills, or if the current owner will have it or not at that time.. needless to say all first hand (all who i know well and trust) accounts say it was well executed.

my personal belief is it is better to do these things to a car that is not perfect or concourse (or has little or no hope to be), and it is far better to do this to a T than an S. the S will go into the same realm that speedsters are now.. the hot ticket worth BIG bucks, especially if unmolested.

i think it will increase the value of the cars these are done to, if done correctly and tastefully. there is a market for the hotrods, and if you molest a less desirable car to make it a hotrod, and do it right, it will have demand. if you molest an S to make it a hotrod, it could decrease the value of the S becasue the desirable car is not in original condition.. for example the speedster again. how many people make hotrods out of speedsters? they dont becasue a perfect speedster is marketed in another level. i say a T or E is perfect for a hotrod for this reason.

where do i see values? i cant speculate that for many reasons
1) no crystal ball
2) lack of expertese on the 911 market and 911 specifics


my 912 though, will be a hotrod based on the t/r, much like the grey one that everyone ooh and ahhed over (myself included!!). he did many things on his car that i have been scheeming over for years.. even the square weave carpet!

my 912 is not perfect, or original enough to be concourse. it is very strong and can keep up with some of the r-gruppe guys, as jarred and dave have witnessed on a run a few years back. it is in fantastic shape though, but lacks pockets on the 68 door panels (unobtanium), original factory manual and stuff that came with the car, no 68 side markets (semi unobtanium), or smog equipment (major unobtanium), and tons of little original items. it would take major bucks and a full resto to truely make concourse.. john benton could do it and scrounge up what is needed, but at the cost, i cant see doing it to this car. i could sell mine and buy a complete 68s in as good or better shape to start with if that were the direction i wanted to go. instead, I am going to mount cibies to a second hood. i have cut a spare set of horn grills and installed ttg fogs, i am going to buy a second deck lid from an SC and do the decal porsche script on it so i can keep my hood original and not worry about filling in holes. i am going to keep deco trim though.. put my original seats in storage and install sports seat replicas. i ahve a roll bar to install, but only have to weld in the mounting plates so it should be reversable. i am installing a flowmaster exhaust i already own (but need to rejet and dyno tune b/c it is too big for my carb set up right now). i have many other plans too..

needless to say everything I am doing will be reversable, so if i need to put it back to stock i can. there are some great 912s out there in perfect original condition, those should remain unmolested, but ones like mine that are drivers are fare game.. same goes for good driver 911s. just do it right and do it tastefully and you should be ok

[jonnyw]

Harry

Thanks for the thoughts,
I was just using that 912R as an example I wasn't aware it had changed hands via flippers all this time, i had thoughti t had gone from owner to owner. Don't get me wrong I loved the car. I've never driven in it however I have seen it in person. It was done nicely. Still 40k for a 912 hopefully makes some of T builders look forward to the day when we have to put a value to our cars and sell them.

I would agree that using an S would be a rather bad move financially given their values. Ts definatly make the logical choice.

I was really looking for a few "of coarse year taking a T to the next level has value!! Expecially done right"

In the past 2 weeks I have aquired some really neat stuff that will be making its appearance on the T im working on. Im trying to build a so called dream car just for my weekend sanity. After the past few weeks of pure expendature I am really hoping that all these neat bits and extra time will be worth it in the long run. Not that Im having 2nd thoughts Its just that little bit of panic where your affraid you might have gone too far, expecially on a little T!!

[hoffman912]

imho taking any car to the next level, especially done right will increase its value. (until the market of r, t/r, st clones falls after everyone else has made one )

i wouldnt say the 912 has always gone from flipper to flipper, i just know the last two times it has. the one who just sold it is here on this forum, is an avid 912 owner, very involved in the 912 registry and always finds the great unknown diamond gem, owns it for a while, redoes the suspension and sometimes the engine with a benton built 912 hod rod engine that is a 911 nightmare, and then sells it. then it is on to the next unknown gem to do the same thing over again. its somthing i think he truly enjoys, as opposed to just flipping for financial gain. infact i would say 'flipper' is probably an insult because of his true passion for these cars. i think he loves the hunt, loves the build and creativity, then owns it long enough to enjoy it until he wants to feel that rush of the hunt again.

many 912s have gone in the high 30s and 40s; these are usually exceptional cars that are in a league of their own. the 912er im talking about continually has cars of this caliber.

i would do what you enjoy and what you want. its your car. if youre in it for gain, then youre in the wrong business. cars are a hobby. if you want to hot rod it, then hot rod it. if you are worried about resale value, buy extra parts (ie hood and anything that you would modify, and put stock seats etc in storage), so that you can revert it to stock.

if you want to build your dream car, then to hell with everything else, build your dream car! you only live once.

[jonnyw]

I agree with everything you said. Im moving forward building what I consider a dream car. Im happy with all the choices I've made so far. Albeit some of them are a little crazy and expensive, it doesnt matter it's worth it to me especially when I get the option to be behind the wheel of it!

The only problem is you always want to keep the future open. You never know what's going to happen so some insightful planning and making sure you do things a step above is always important.

What point is to far? What's the level of expenditure stupidity when dumping money into a lowly little T? Or do you just completely forget about relative cost and look at the fun it's going to bring?

Im tying to have a fun little discussion here thats all.!

Most of the modifications i've done so far are all visual. Rustoration, Sport Seats, new interior with some custom elements. Complete new suspension brakes and on and on. My last point of work is down to the drivetrain.

I've rebuilt the trans added a shiny new LSD to the mix.

Im left with the engine. Currently its a stock 2.4 case thats been once over'd buy Olies. Crank heads have all been re-worked. It should be excellent.

My problem is will it be excellent enough. I've been toying with getting some PMO TBs and working on some sort of Flow through Turbo setup with Ben from MK. I haven't quite figured that out as I do not want to run Electronic FI or megasquirt or any of that crap. Is that taking this project too far? Should I just stick with the NA engine or should I try to make some sort of retro styled old school turbo setup! Low boost that is.

Thats falling into a level of insanity that I want to do , however I'm not too sure thats a good step. Fun as hell but might be a little overkill. Sometimes overkill is fun though!!

Im serious, i've already started collecting some turbo bits and have worked with ben on some of the plumbing ideas already. But.....

Where do you draw the line.

[hoffman912]

The only problem is you always want to keep the future open.

thats why im making it so mine is reversable.

also the future is a very important thing money wise.. unless youre extremely comfortable and have bottomless pockets to throw at a car. i would say come up with a budget and stick to that.

where to draw the line depends on the limits of sanity and the limits of your check book.

if you want turbo, i would go with fi.. make life more sane.. i dont know though, i have no experience with boost except for driving a friends 951 for about 10 minutes then handing him the keys and telling him never to let me do that again, as i will go out and buy one and wrap it around a tree

if you have a healthy budget, i would go with a healthy short stoke 2.8 twin plug. i would worry about a home made turbo mess, and how driveable it would be. remember the original 930s were a handfull.. if you turbo it i think i would stick it fi for simplicity and tuning. thats just me.

you know your limits, and you know what you want. you have a blank canvas, create what is in your heart.

[greggearhead]

Interesting topic. I have been on the fringe of 911 ownership for years. In college I worked on them and drove them a lot, and developed the love. Then, owned and modded VWs for years and years. WOrked in the VW and auto performance industry and realized a long nose performance modded 911 might be out of my price range, with many other hobbies and vehicles tugging at the same wallet.

I fell into a really good deal, after a late night BS session with my neighbor who is also a car guy and quoted one of his old school hot rod buddies that drove a 32 Ford roadster for about 30+ years. He said to buy your one dream car, mod it into what you want, and drive the crap out of it = enjoy it as much as you can.

My point - I bought a 911T. I would have bought an S or an E or whatever for the price, and will mod it into my retro-performance themed car I will love to drive whenever I can. Id you can get some or all of your investment out of it at the end, because your priorities changed, great. If not, what did you pay to enjoy a kickass 911 for that time period?

We all look back and miss cars and motorcycles saying "Should never have sold *that* one". This 911 is one of those for me, so as long as I don't go broke and not pay the bills, I will be happy with it.

[greggearhead]

You know - I didn't comment on what I meant to. Modding (or restoring) a car almost never gets out of it what you put into it.

However, I have seen the early 911 hot rods, when done well, be worth very strong money. If you buy a car to use, and it is much 'better' at cornering or accelerating or braking or whatever, it can be worth more than stock to a buyer. I, personally, would pay more for a 911 that was modded (how I want) than a 100% stock one. I am not most of the market though. I bought a T with a whale tail and all kinds of other crap tacked on it. Happy about it still!

[silverc4s]

I think that when you modify an early 911 T or E tastefully (that is, not trying to make it into something that it isn't, like a 930 or a slant nose, etc..) then you can increase the value of the car, but to an ever narrower group of potential buyers.

An Original car, most 911 shoppers will be interested

An early 911 with R-Gruppe modifications, smaller interest group, because some will not agree with your mods, so they will have no value to them, and some will like the mods, but may not agree on your value of those mods, and there is not a good market reference for modified cars - not just ours but all modified cars.

Like a Hemi Roadrunner replica or "tribute" car may not even sell for the construction cost in the current market.

[37yrold911]

take the cost of the parts for "every other possible crazy expensive mod" that you put on the car; now divide by 3

then take the labor cost for all the above and multiply times 0

now add the the two values together; then add that to the fair market value of a T

that is the resulting value of your car