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Thread: Entering Porsche 911 in Classic Le Mans or Silverstone Classic

  1. #1

    Entering Porsche 911 in Classic Le Mans or Silverstone Classic

    I used the search button first, but nothing of help came up. So I was wondering if any of you can point me in the right direction. Starting of with a 1971 911 T what can and can't I do to be able to enter the car for events like the Classic Le Mans and Silverstone Classic?

    Does it need to have the original 2.2 liter engine, is the 2.5 the limit or can I also use a custom built engine based on a 3.0 SC? Can I use the SC brake callipers and how about things like roll bars (heavier) and suspension?

    Where can I learn more about this?

    Thanks.

    John

  2. #2
    On the car front, it would probably need an FIVA Historic Vehicle identity document/passport, which will be based on the homologation papers relative to the model you are saying the car is. The best thing to do is to talk to somebody who currently runs a car in these type of events or organises them. If you are in the UK then ring the RAC MSA at Colnbrook and ask for advice, or whoever is you local FIA sanctioned body.

    The threads on here such as The Ultimate ST ... or T/R are good places to look and pick up hints on period mods and specification. There is also a guy called Alex Beeler in Switzerland who can supply electronic copies of the 911 homologation papers, I can supply an email if you are interested.

  3. #3
    I`m afraid the only help I can offer is to suggest you ask your question over on DDK.

    http://www.ddk-online.com/


    Mike.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
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    I don't know the answer but I suspect that it is unlikely that you would get an entry at Classic Le Mans with your car.

    The event is over-subscribed & the organisers can 'pick & choose' which cars to grant entry to.

    I am fairly certain that an 'ordinary' 911 entry request from an 'ordinary' owner/driver would not meet with success - the rarer the car (within those cars that are eligible) - especially if it is a make/model not already on the entry list - the higher the likelihood will be of gaining an entry.
    Andy

    Early 911S Reg #753
    R Gruppe #105

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by andyjboy View Post
    I don't know the answer but I suspect that it is unlikely that you would get an entry at Classic Le Mans with your car.

    The event is over-subscribed & the organisers can 'pick & choose' which cars to grant entry to.

    I am fairly certain that an 'ordinary' 911 entry request from an 'ordinary' owner/driver would not meet with success - the rarer the car (within those cars that are eligible) - especially if it is a make/model not already on the entry list - the higher the likelihood will be of gaining an entry.
    +1 for the historic LeMans

    It's over over subscribed.

    Richard

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by 304678 View Post
    +1 for the historic LeMans

    It's over over subscribed.

    Richard
    That sucks. They should make the selection based upon time trials...

  7. #7
    Thanks so far for all the input.

    Classic Le Mans would be great of course, but I also mean events like the Silverstone Classic, Tour de France and the Oldtimer Grand Prix at the Nurburgring. Building a ST from the 911 T is one part of it, but enjoying the car is the best part of it.

    Last year I was at the Classic Le Mans and was amazed that even tiny cars like the Saab 92 V2 can join in the fun. Naturally there were many 911s and for sure they will try to get cars with Le Mans history there. Then again they might also want drivers there who entertain the paying public. At the 2008 event there was a Belgian ex-touring car racer who did exactly this and really gave the audience somethig to cheer for. He was sliding his cars through the corners instead of some other entrants who were just 'touring' their classic car around the circuit. In the end the organisers of these events have to compete as well with each other (2008 Classic Le Mans clashed with the Goodwood Festival of Speed) and in the long run no one wants to pay to watch a parade at Le Mans. I for sure want to see the cars being driven in anger like they were back in the day they were new. For sure that is what I intend to do. Cruising in my mind is not something that should be done in events like these.

    Anyway, main issue is to hopefully build a car that is eligable for these events and based on that make the right choices (engine, brakes, etcetera).

    John

  8. #8
    Senior Member 911T1971's Avatar
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    John,
    doesn't usually an eligible car for today's "Le Mans Classic" also have been eligible to race in its authentic FIA class back when the original race "24 heures du Mans" was of actual time, being a Bentley of the late 1920'ies or an 917 of the 1970'ies ?

    I know this is neither the case for Goodwood, Tour de France or Nurburgring, each have differents approaches and restrictions.


    Registry member No.773

  9. #9
    Didn't see much available at Silverstone for an ST...Nurburgring Oldtimer is a possibility for you...

    http://www.avd.de/ogpracing/english/...t1972_1981.pdf
    Peter Kane

    '72 911S Targa
    Message Board Co-Moderator - Early 911S Registry #100

  10. #10
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    FIA Papers come in two flavors-

    One certifies the car to be an original (THE original?). Owners must provide documentation an unbroken chain of ownership from the past to present as well as show the car continues to meet the original specifications for the years it was raced. This is difficult. I know of one SWB US 911 with that sort of pedigree (Dean Watts' "901").

    The other certifies that the car meets in every respect the original specifications. i.e. it differes in now way from the original. The owner provides his car for an inspection against the Factory Homologation Papers. These papers include photos, dimensions and part numbers for just about everything; pistons, rods, camshafts, valve springs, suspension control arms, bushings, torsion bars, sway bars, brake rotor diameter, thickness, & design, and calipers. This would preclude (I believe) 3 liter cases, bigger (or drilled) rotors, even turbo tie rod ends and alloy front cross members. The other critical area of compliance difficulties for many US prepared cars is body materials and finish. Lexan Windshields are specifically forbidden (FIA safety rule) fibergalss and carbon fiber can't be substituted for metal and interiors must be essentially complete (even the seats are in the original specifications). I believe some latitude is given on seats (type but not quantity) and wheels (manufacturer & design, but not dimensions) for "safety" however traditional American gutted interiors are not going to pass. Recently Dr. Bruce O'Neil completed his SWB 911 T/R and received his papers. Bruce has been doing this since the mid-'60s so it's second nature for him. Based on his experienc I would recommend a conservative specification will get the papers much more easily, then you can make adjustments once you're in Europe and see what is accepted and in the paddock. Remember you're in their playground not yours and all men are not created equal east of the Atlantic.

    You need to get the origianl Homologation Papers for your 911. ADAC has them. I believe SOVREN (in Seattle) may have them if they are simply a modification of the original 1969 LWB papers. They are in German, but you can easily figure them out with the dimensions and visual aids contained. The you need the FIA rules for 1971 which clearly spell out the modifications to the original Homologated Car which are permitted (any brake lining, for example). I'm not certain whether the 1969 FIA "Appendix K" rules were still in effect in 1971, but you can see them in English here, http://www.sovren.org/competition/competition.htm. Be very careful to pick the correct set Group I, through IV. I believe they make some sense in that Group II is "everything in Group I plus.....". However something that is excluded in Group IV may be included in Group II so don't assume. Also be careful you don't "mix and match" SCCA and FIA rules. Just like SFI and DOT regulations don't allow automatic compliance of FIA certified safety gear and vice versa (this means your seat belts, driving suit, etc need to be FIA certified), SCCA & FIA regulations are different philosophically and aren't interchangeable. ACCUS can handle your inspection and certification though the fees for this are not insignificant (it costs just as much to fail as it does to pass and I don't think they cover re-testing).

    After your car has the FIA papers, you can begin the process of making it attractive to organizers. And remember that you'll need more than an SCCA competition license to participate...... None of this is simple, but the rewards can be significant. As someone who has enjoyed competition on European Tracks I can tell you they are 1) Fast and 2) FAst, or did I say 3) FAST! Probably only Elkhart Lake (and perhaps remotely Thunderhill) support the speeds that you will run in Europe.

    good luck

    johnt

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