67S, M471 (lightweight) RS, and RS clone at Fantasy Junction

[PSportoVeloce]

Hi Guys,

I hope this note doesn't offend the board sensibilities, but we have some early 911's available. The prices are not in my control.

1967 911S s/n 306131S engine no. 961094, non-matching, nice solid car with cosmetic needs, set up for CSRG events and drives superbly. $54,500
More info here.


1973 Carrera RS genuine M471 lightweight s/n 911 360 1079 engine no. 6631054, matching numbers, low mileage (54,000km from new), known history from new, never totally restored but in excellent condition. Numberous inspection reports by experts to substantiate the condition and authenticity of the car. Totally kickass driving experience: very fast, properly set up (influding MFI), and does everything right. $365,000
More info here.



1973 Carrera RS Clone s/n 911 310 1548 engine no. 6230066, very correctly built car based on a 73 T that was stripped to a tub, real steel RS flares, recent 2.7 liter MFI engine to RS specs, SSI's, 15X7's and 8's, SC brakes and suspension, correct LTW seats, door panels, rubber floor mats. $85,000/offers
More info here.

[Flunder]

This sounds like an interesting car.

Has anyone had a close look at it?

Does it have mostly original paint?

Looks like a later set of 7s and 8s based on the non-three prong caps.

[Ajco]

Original Paint? Should be obvious if you look at the paint code data plate and how the stamped vin # in the front is painted over incorrectly.
Any other thoughts why a genuine 73 M471 has : undercoating in engine bay and elsewhere, hood badge not a sticker and the most curious, the headlight switch is padded (as are all knobs) and has "LIGHTS" tab abbove and "FASTEN SEAT BELT" illuminating light? Incorrectly finished rims. Shift knob. Not knocking the seller, but some things on this car are very strange...A lot of coin for car with some odd touches. Thoughts anyone?

[210bhp]

Original Paint? Should be obvious if you look at the paint code data plate and how the stamped vin # in the front is painted over incorrectly.
Any other thoughts why a genuine 73 M471 has : undercoating in engine bay and elsewhere, hood badge not a sticker and the most curious, the headlight switch is padded (as are all knobs) and has "LIGHTS" tab abbove and "FASTEN SEAT BELT" illuminating light? Incorrectly finished rims. Shift knob. Not knocking the seller, but some things on this car are very strange...A lot of coin for car with some odd touches. Thoughts anyone?

Yes, a few things noted over on DDK where the car has been discussed. Andy noted the later tach as well as the later rims.
I think the hood badge is ok as the stick on decal became obsolete in Feb 73. Other than that your other observations merit further discussion.

Regards
Mike

[fryardds]

Here is a link to a thread on Pelican about this M471 RS. I suspected the rubber covered knobs and seat belt light were done by the US Air Force officer who brought the car into the States in the late '70s to comply with DOT BS.

In post #38 you will read a nice description of the car from second owner (Col. Roger Kruckeburg). He confirms the changes that were made.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=494439

Mike,

It is the speedo that has been changed not the tach. to a later model.

[210bhp]

It is the speedo that has been changed not the tach. to a later model.

Sorry Brian. I meant the speedo. Brain fade.

Regards
Mike

[Flunder]

Sounds like a bullet proof provenance.

Lifted from the Bird:


"Roger's comments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys, I got Roger's okay to cut & paste sections of his emails to me...so, as written by the guy who brought this car into the USA, here we go...

I’m enjoying reading the comments although I really don’t want to get involved in the discussion. Someone talked about rolled fenders…..I was surprised myself to find the flares had been hammer welded on, then checked with the factory, or someone knowledgeable on RS’s and that’s the way they were supposed to be, because they didn’t have the 8” flares at the time, and the 73’s had the welded flares. When we, PCA as well as German clubs, had joint factory driver training at Hockenheim raceway, which was a relatively regular occurrence, there were always a bunch of RS’s and owners to talk with from the local German clubs. That’s when I first became interested in getting one because they were so different and my first opinion was why in the hell would someone paint their wheels like that. Someone who knew what they were said oh, those are RS’s and special. When I had mine there was only one other in the PCA Germany Region. Later a Army LT Col who also had one of the real 916’s bought one for his wife. When I bought it, it had a clock rather than a cover up. I know it’s a real one because I had the original K brief with the serial number 911360SC1079. I may have the SC in the wrong place, but that was a surprise to me also as I was unfamiliar with an SC in the serial number. Those driving lights were on the hood of the car when I bought it and I had them removed and filled in at B&B which was turning out some wild turbo looking customs in the mid 70’s, and I thought they would do a good job. There were also a lot of small dents in the tops of the front fenders where people had pushed down to check the shock stiffness I guess, and put dents on top of the finders. I had them fixed also. The engine had been rebuilt at 40,000 KM (just before I bought it for 25,000 DM or $10K) and they had bored out to 2.8 with larger pistons. When I bought the car only one original RS seat the passenger seat was present and a Recaro was in the driver’s side. The guy that bought the car from me added 2 new reproduction RS seats which weighed either 3 or 7 lbs, I can’t remember but was amazed when I weighed the original passenger seat. It was surprising how light and comfortable the original seats were. The glass was also the thinner Gverbel Belgium glass all except the left rear glass which was broken when I had the car painted, and it came with a 1975 whale tail, and I picked up the duck tail in Eugene at the dealership, NOS for $100. Some people said the real light weight’s came without a glove box cover but this one had one. It appears that someone added new mirrors as the originals were not round and I don’t recall if it had the right hand side mirror or not. I undercoated the car because of all the rain in Eugene, and the crinkle finish in the engine area, was there when I bought it. I had heard also that the next owner had stripped the undercoating off but it doesn’t look like it? He subsequently got into a pissing contest with me because I hadn’t told him the car had been in an accident!!!! It wasn’t in an accident when I had it as I had originally explained, but could have been in one as Alfred tracked the car regularly and I wouldn’t have been surprised if it had? There was a small rip in the body metal where the left hand side of the deck lid fit which probably was just stress torn, but when the buyer from me found that, and the non original rear glass he thought he’d been deceived. I wish he’d have demanded his money back………I agree with the Pelican guys, too much money, but then you can ask any price you choose. You and I have driven the car, and like you said, it was very quick, and it handled beautifully. When I use to auto cross in Germany and Holland, I was usually first in my class, but when I got to close time wise to the Air Force Colonel who owned the other RS, he’d go spend $3,000 on brakes , suspension, or whatever from RUF……I don’t think I ever caught him, and remember one time when he drove with a bad (noisy) chain tensioner to the point that it could have broken, but he didn’t want to lose that badly! When his son matured in driving the RS and was getting close to his times, he bought him a 914 6 cyl and wouldn’t let him drive the RS any longer thus getting rid of the competition. The last time I was in Europe, I went to visit the Col who was working at the Stars and Stripes bookstore to maintain his residency, license plates, commissary privileges etc, and whose name has escaped me, but he had died not that long after retirement. You know, all things considered, we both had the right cars in the right era…….Porsche was on top of the heap then and it was fun to be a small part of it.

...and...

I really didn’t change anything but had to add some stuff to conform to the MVSS of the day………..like re-gluing the windshield in with DOT approved glue so I could drive 55 here, install side door braces in the doors, or fabricate the paperwork……guess which one I chose, and all the other crap of the day put into the motor vehicle safety standards by college educated bureaucrat type’s who didn’t know **** about cars, but made the rules. I think they are still there! I also had to put all the American markings for lights, wipers, etc. I got grilled when I brought it into the port in Portland. You’d have thought I had personally offended the customs guy that checked my paperwork, and his parting words we will be getting in touch with you! Back in those days, I think the factory would outfit your car pretty much as you wanted and lots of guys made changes as long as they didn’t run afoul of TUV……..they had just recently in the 70’s shut guys off that were installing really built 356 engines in VW’s because they weren’t upgrading the brakes and running gear to go with the increased power.

So guys...now you know more. If it's important to you."

[72targa]

Great history...

Reformatted for easier reading...

"I’m enjoying reading the comments although I really don’t want to get involved in the discussion. Someone talked about rolled fenders…..I was surprised myself to find the flares had been hammer welded on, then checked with the factory, or someone knowledgeable on RS’s and that’s the way they were supposed to be, because they didn’t have the 8” flares at the time, and the 73’s had the welded flares.

When we, PCA as well as German clubs, had joint factory driver training at Hockenheim raceway, which was a relatively regular occurrence, there were always a bunch of RS’s and owners to talk with from the local German clubs. That’s when I first became interested in getting one because they were so different and my first opinion was why in the hell would someone paint their wheels like that.

Someone who knew what they were said oh, those are RS’s and special. When I had mine there was only one other in the PCA Germany Region. Later a Army LT Col who also had one of the real 916’s bought one for his wife. When I bought it, it had a clock rather than a cover up. I know it’s a real one because I had the original K brief with the serial number 911360SC1079. I may have the SC in the wrong place, but that was a surprise to me also as I was unfamiliar with an SC in the serial number.

Those driving lights were on the hood of the car when I bought it and I had them removed and filled in at B&B which was turning out some wild turbo looking customs in the mid 70’s, and I thought they would do a good job. There were also a lot of small dents in the tops of the front fenders where people had pushed down to check the shock stiffness I guess, and put dents on top of the finders. I had them fixed also.

The engine had been rebuilt at 40,000 KM (just before I bought it for 25,000 DM or $10K) and they had bored out to 2.8 with larger pistons. When I bought the car only one original RS seat the passenger seat was present and a Recaro was in the driver’s side. The guy that bought the car from me added 2 new reproduction RS seats which weighed either 3 or 7 lbs, I can’t remember but was amazed when I weighed the original passenger seat. It was surprising how light and comfortable the original seats were.

The glass was also the thinner Gverbel Belgium glass all except the left rear glass which was broken when I had the car painted, and it came with a 1975 whale tail, and I picked up the duck tail in Eugene at the dealership, NOS for $100. Some people said the real light weight’s came without a glove box cover but this one had one. It appears that someone added new mirrors as the originals were not round and I don’t recall if it had the right hand side mirror or not.

I undercoated the car because of all the rain in Eugene, and the crinkle finish in the engine area, was there when I bought it. I had heard also that the next owner had stripped the undercoating off but it doesn’t look like it? He subsequently got into a pissing contest with me because I hadn’t told him the car had been in an accident!!!! It wasn’t in an accident when I had it as I had originally explained, but could have been in one as Alfred tracked the car regularly and I wouldn’t have been surprised if it had?

There was a small rip in the body metal where the left hand side of the deck lid fit which probably was just stress torn, but when the buyer from me found that, and the non original rear glass he thought he’d been deceived. I wish he’d have demanded his money back………I agree with the Pelican guys, too much money, but then you can ask any price you choose.

You and I have driven the car, and like you said, it was very quick, and it handled beautifully. When I use to auto cross in Germany and Holland, I was usually first in my class, but when I got to close time wise to the Air Force Colonel who owned the other RS, he’d go spend $3,000 on brakes , suspension, or whatever from RUF……I don’t think I ever caught him, and remember one time when he drove with a bad (noisy) chain tensioner to the point that it could have broken, but he didn’t want to lose that badly!

When his son matured in driving the RS and was getting close to his times, he bought him a 914 6 cyl and wouldn’t let him drive the RS any longer thus getting rid of the competition. The last time I was in Europe, I went to visit the Col who was working at the Stars and Stripes bookstore to maintain his residency, license plates, commissary privileges etc, and whose name has escaped me, but he had died not that long after retirement. You know, all things considered, we both had the right cars in the right era…….Porsche was on top of the heap then and it was fun to be a small part of it.

...and...

I really didn’t change anything but had to add some stuff to conform to the MVSS of the day………..like re-gluing the windshield in with DOT approved glue so I could drive 55 here, install side door braces in the doors, or fabricate the paperwork……guess which one I chose, and all the other crap of the day put into the motor vehicle safety standards by college educated bureaucrat type’s who didn’t know **** about cars, but made the rules. I think they are still there!

I also had to put all the American markings for lights, wipers, etc. I got grilled when I brought it into the port in Portland. You’d have thought I had personally offended the customs guy that checked my paperwork, and his parting words we will be getting in touch with you! Back in those days, I think the factory would outfit your car pretty much as you wanted and lots of guys made changes as long as they didn’t run afoul of TUV……..they had just recently in the 70’s shut guys off that were installing really built 356 engines in VW’s because they weren’t upgrading the brakes and running gear to go with the increased power."

[yale]

"72targa Great history...

Reformatted for easier reading..."

Now you tell me! Best, Yale