Is this Kremer car and S and not a T

[Original Poster]

Original post.......

[Milou]

Not sure what the knob was for? but clearly visible here:



Here is number 55 in color:

a. Nurburgring 1972


b. Spa 1972

[letsrollbabe]

Raj:

I think the Grand Tourisme book's caption may just be based on an assumption the the Kremer car shown was an S (since STs were built on S numbered cars by the factory), but most likely only records from Kremer Racing would absolutely verify which is correct. Here is a link to a car for sale in July 09 that is purported to be the green Kremer ST, and it has the same VIN...9112500335 as the one in the US imported by David Mohlman a few years ago.

http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find...&dealerpage=no

This car, which has many different features from what would have been used in the day has an RSR front bumper...which the Kremer ST may have had at the end of its racing career, when it was running against RSRs and had a spoiler lip added (see pic below from RS Book).

I looked through all my pics of the green Kremer ST from the day, and I don't see one that clearly shows the driver side slits cut into the front bumper for cooling air to the driver side cooler. Even the 73 Daytona (#54) shot appears not to have them on the left side. So maybe they were added when the car got a larger engine in 73...maybe it got a 2.8 or 3.0 RSR engine as it was raced into the 74 season, which I have been told was its history (Edmond Harris source). The car which was at RRIII, had the slots on both sides, and it was sold that way by Edmond-Harris to Mohlman.

Russell Edmond was my source for the fact that Kremer used 'Ts' rather than 'Ss' because they were homoligated and built lighter by Karmann, and none of the Kremer cars were listed on the 72 ST list as I recall, which were all S cars.

Gib

[Flunder]

Raj: I guess it comes down to serial number assigned at the Werks. I have read that the Kremer brothers were the only privateers permitted the courtesy of purchasing "bodies in white" or bare tubs from the factory. No others were granted this privilege according to the stories - not Strahle, Brumos, Toad Hall etc. Everyone else had to buy a complete car. Now for GT Group 4 in 1972, it seems that all the entries are listed as 911 S. For the 1972 season, the competition spares list states that it is for 911S Competition Type. This begs the question, were the T or E even homologated in the FIA papers for the 1972 season for the "evolution of type" and the new equipment: front spoiler, relocation of dry sump tank, new transmission with spritzer pump etc.? If the 72 Kremer cars were built from T tubs that did not prevent entry as a 911S in Group 4 events as long as they conformed to the homologation and were entered as an homologated model. Question: were the 72 Kremer cars even assigned chassis numbers? If so, are they 911S chassis numbers? Kremer said they were T tubs - probably Karmann-built and selected by Kremer because Karmann used thinner (cheaper for Karmann) rear seating panels etc. Anyone have a pic of the serial number pad of the green car? Also, was the yellow car fitted with air jacks for endurance events? That knob looks like it could be the female fitting for an air hose.

[911T1971]

FYI, this was, according to my mechanic who owned it for a while, a Kremer build 1972 chassis too.

[HughH]

Raj
one thing to consider is that to most people, and probably for the intended purpose of these cars, the "fact" of whether it was an S or a T rested on the engine specifications more than the chassis number. (Obviously in the late 60's the lighter homologation weight of the T made sure the cars were designated T, but by 1972 or so I am not sure that it made any difference)

Thus it is quite probable that even if the Kremer car at the show originally had a T shell, IF it had an S engine in it, and was spec'd as an S, it would have been labeled as an S and probably entered as one as well.

Also i think there were at least a couple of yellow Kremer cars. The one I have attached (same car as one of your pictures) is from 1971 (at Nurburgring in the European 2-litre Sports Car Championship) and was a 2 litre car entered as a T in GT2.0 (not a 2.3 or 2.5) and I think probably different to the #55 yellow car.

At Spa in 1972 the #55 yellow car was entered in the World Championship for Makes series as a 911S in GT category - ie as a group 4 car, as it was at Le Mans and I think the green one was also always entered the same way.

[HughH]

Raj

going back to your post #1 my understanding of the photos, in order, is they are:

photos 1 and 2 (yellow car)
World Championship for Makes, 1000 km Nürburgring, 28.5.1972

car #55 John Fitzpatrick (GB) Erwin Kremer (D) Porsche 911 S Kremer Porsche Racing 1st. GT+2.0 9th overall
photo 3 , hard to tell but probably the same meeting
photo 4 you have described it, but this time the green car at the Essen show

post #2
European Trophy (European GT championship not the world one)

photo 1 Euro GT Estoril, 12.11.1972
#61 John Fitzpatrick (GB) Porsche 911S Porsche Kremer Racing 1st overall and 1st in GT+2.0
photo 2 Euro GT Nivelles, 2.7.1972 (much earlier than the previous photo at Estoril)
#34 John Fitzpatrick (GB) Porsche 911S Porsche Kremer 4th GT+2.0 and 4th OA
That green car is most likely to be 911 250 0335 although it is always shown as being entered as an "S".

Post 8
the first picture is at Nurburgring in the European 2-litre Sports Car Championship as discussed above and I am almost positive that it is a different car to the second picture also discussed above.

going to Gib's point about the cooling holes on the drivers side, I cant see any in my pictures either for the 1972 or 1973 year

And just for the sake of me liking the photo and not remembering seeing it here before, here is a photo of both cars at Estoril, the last race of the season.
Car #69 was raced by local driver, António Borges (P) and came in 8th place (last classified)

[HughH]

While we are looking at Kremer cars (which I find are not well documented) I am also interested in this one:

It is shown below as car #82 at the International Championship for Makes 1000 km Nürburgring on 30.5.1971. (first two photos)
It is described as a Porsche 911 S in GT+2.0 class driven by Erwin Kremer (D) Jürgen Neuhaus (D) into 12 place and first in class.

Again like the ones from the next year posted by Raj I had thought that Kremer used T shells but this is clearly shown as an S in the results.

The next photo shows, i think, the same car at 1000 km Zeltweg on 27.6.1971 where it was also shown as a Porsche 911 S in GT+2.0 class (and finishing 10th OA and 3rd in class).

The next one shows it (I think) at 1000 km Spa on 9.5.1971 again as a Porsche 911 S in GT+2.0 class (and finishing 7th OA and 1st in class).

The final one show a car from Spa in 1970 again shown as a Porsche 911 S in GT+2.0 class (and finishing 18th OA and 2nd in class) and bearing more than a passing resemblance to the cars shown from 1971.

I wonder if anyone on the board knows if these are all the same car and if so what its identity is. The fact that all the races are in the international series rather than a European or country series suggests that it is the predecessor to the Yellow car (which ran international series while the green one ran European series). However i have seen very little coverage of it and as it was at Spa in May 1970 it suggests it is a 1970 model (it does not appear to have 1969 features)

[letsrollbabe]

Raj, I think your reasoning regarding the promotion of the S in competition events (vs. a T) makes sense, and Porsche would have been motivated in that direction. But I also agree with Hugh's reasoning that in circuit competition form, there was virtually no difference whether a customer started with a T, E, or S, as the engine, tranny, and suspension would have been quite different from the street versions. The brake calipers, adjustable shocks and sway bars were options on any version, and the rest of the go-fast stuff came in the 'race kit'.

If I were an privateer in the day, I think I would have opted to buy a T and then buy the 'race kit' from the factory to get 10.5 CR with twin plug ignition, larger port heads, more aggressive cams, modified MFI pumps (or 46 webers), slightly larger sway bars, wider flares/wheels, a roll bar, and have a good race shop install this hardware. (It would have been cheaper most likely) I think this scenario took place for more entrants than used factory STs, and we will probably never know how many were S, T, or E to start with.

You could argue that this approach would have ignored small details, like undercoating delete, and seam welding (only factory prepared STs had these features, not stock Ss), but more important to placing well in events would have been overall car preparation, gear selections for a particular track, wheel/tire choices, and probably most important...driving skills.

Think about Indy racing today...the first 4 points leaders are Penske/Ganassi drivers, then Danica Patrick is 5th with Andretti/Green. Winning is all about car preparation coupled with a good driver, then and now.

There is no question that the factory led the way toward the most important developments in sports car racing history with their focus on racing the 911 and its derivatives beginning in 72/73. But it is also worthy to recognize the contributions made by those independent shops who were more motivated than the factory in 69-72 to make the 911 a very competitive car in circuit competiton.

Gib

[letsrollbabe]

We have now evolved the Porsche story to the Carrera RS era in the spring of 72. Porsche was planning on coming out with a 2.7L S in 73, so the factory knew that the 2.5L class would no longer be where the 911 would compete to win sales in the market.

From the Carrera RS book, the story goes..."In the spring of 72 Ernst Fuhrmann attended a touring car race at Hockenheimring, and he saw for himself how a Ford Capri---followed by a BMW coupe---practically had the track to itself. It had already lapped the fastest Porsche once. This scene is now considered the birth of the Carrera RS...."

Fuhrmann realized that if Porsche was going to remain a factor in circuit racing, they needed to develop a car through the homologation process that had been pioneered by Ford's Mike Kranefuss to homologate the Capri. The engineering credit mostly goes to Wolfgang Berger, who was charged with coming up with new specifications that would allow the 911 to be competitive with the Capri and BMW 3.0 CSI, and he had already been working on the 2.7L engine project for the production 73 911S.

So the factory used previous knowledge gained from the R, the T/R, and the low homologated weight of the 911S in 70, along with the Capri homologation model to come up with a competitive 911 for the 3.0L class with new homologated weights for the RS/RSR. They first raced at the Austria Ring in July 72 under the Strahle name with a 2.8L engine, and a rudimentary tail spoiler, Teldix ABS brakes, and finished 10th overall with Waldegaard/Steckkonig driving.

The point here is that within about 4-6 months of effort (lead by Berger I think) that bypassed much of the Porsche procedures for decision making (mainly Marketing), Fuhrmann pushed through the plans for producing the Carrera RS, and the rest....as they say....is history. This was the moment of change that had the biggest impact on the success of the 911 and Porsche's business future based on their success with the various derivatives of the 911 over the next 40 years.

Yes, Porsche wanted the 911 to do well in circuit competition prior to this,as well as rally work. But the new management in 72 saw the potential for the 911 to be the flag bearer (win on Sunday, sell on Monday) not only in Europe, but in the US, particularly after the outright win at Daytona 24 in 73 with the new RSR. For the rest of the decade, the factory developed versions of the 911 that dominated circuit racing on both continents. As rules kept changing, they developed the 911 in turbo form to keep it as a winner.

Gib