Guidance for standard/typical/recommended repair times

[coma]

Hi everyone,

My 1973 911S Targa got rear-ended a while ago and I'm still fighting with the Insurance Company and Repair Shops over cost and coverage.

A couple of days ago I received the final bill from the shop that did all the mechanical work and I really think that they are trying to overcharge me. Although they are a reputable and highly specialized Porsche shop, I know for a fact, that their business is very slow right now, so I feel that they are trying to stretch repair times more than "just a little" in order to make up for the current economical conditions.

I'm hoping that someone can give me some guidance in regards to standard/typical/recommended repair times for certain tasks which the shop performed.

Here's the list with my own time estimates (hours) in parenthesis:

Remove/Install engine (5.0)
Remove/Install muffler (0.75)
Remove/Install left heat exchanger (0.75)

All following tasks performed with engine removed:
Remove/Install MFI pump and fuel injectors (2.0)
Replace engine mounts (0.25)
Install sound insulation pad in engine compartment (0.25)
Install engine compartment perimeter seals (0.5)
Replace both inner CV boots (0.5)
Replace charcoal canister vent hoses in engine compartment (0.3)
Replace chassis high temp heater hoses [between flap and Xchanger] (0.3)
Install oil tank (0.5)
Replace oil level sender - with oil tank installed (0.5)
Clean-up valve covers, adjust valves and re-torque cylinder heads (1.5)
Replace MFI CAM drive seal - on engine side (0.5)
Replace batteries (0.3)
Adjust shifter (0.5)

The above estimates get me to a total repair time of about 14 hours - the shop claims that they have spent over 30 hours to perform these tasks.

Does someone have a factory list for "recommended repair times" ?

Also, I asked half a dozen independent Porsche specialists in my area about their hourly rates and every single one said $120/hour - my shop asks 140/hour. Is this common? Please let me know what your experience here is.

I'm grateful for every tip, comment or advice.

Thanks much in advance :-)
Ciao
Conny Marx

[davep]

If I can find some time I can look up the times in my flat rate manual. However I make no promises since a local club I belong to is trying to put on a major show in two weeks and it looks like our venue for the last 30 years may still be closed for repairs.

[coma]

If I can find some time I can look up the times in my flat rate manual. However I make no promises since a local club I belong to is trying to put on a major show in two weeks and it looks like our venue for the last 30 years may still be closed for repairs.

Thanks much in advance. That would be fantastic. Would help me a great deal.
Ciao
Conny

[911quest]

When your dealing with old vintage cars it is hard to use a factory time ( Flat Rate). And the time on your repair order isn't that far off & would belive them when they said they have 30hrs in it. Working on old cars is very time consuming broken bolts cleaning parts etc. That is why most resto shops charge time & materials.

Just my thoughts..

[911scfanatic]

When your dealing with old vintage cars it is hard to use a factory time ( Flat Rate). And the time on your repair order isn't that far off & would belive them when they said they have 30hrs in it. Working on old cars is very time consuming broken bolts cleaning parts etc. That is why most resto shops charge time & materials.

Just my thoughts..

Tony is right. R/r a heat exchanger...real world that task can take MANY hours. Rusted or broken bolts, jacked up threads.

[jaudette3]

Tony is right. R/r a heat exchanger...real world that task can take MANY hours. Rusted or broken bolts, jacked up threads.

Whew! Those of us who work on our *old* cars can attest to that. I have three different items soaking in Kroil in preparation for tomorrows projects.

Times can really vary with the old cars. I read about a guy who claims to have removed an engine and transmission in 22 minutes one time - without a lift. I can remove a 356 engine in well under an hour - *if* everything goes smoothly.

The shop I use here in Bend quotes 9 hours to R/R a 911 engine and transmission and I have paid that without feeling ripped off. The numbers you listed don't seem out of line to me at all.

Cheers,
JohnA

[edmayo]

Okay so I'm also in the business, and you could take this as the fox guarding the hen house, but not only are you NOT being overcharged, but frankly if you want quality work those times are on the low side. Take for example replace engine sound pad in .25 (15 minutes) I defy you to remove the old pad, clean off all the old glue residue and pad remnants, r&r the hood shock, position the new pad, and glue it in correctly with all the edges lined up and even with the rear edge of the compartment so all the retaining tabs are even with the edge of the pad. Oh, and by the way you cannot use any time to prepare for the next job, flat rate times don't allow for cleaning up, drawing the parts, picking up or putting away tools, or cleaning the car of finger prints when you're done, putting the car on a lift or jack stands........etc. etc. You see my point I think on the impracticality of flat rate times and quality work.

Okay, I'm done ranting

[coma]

Okay so I'm also in the business, and you could take this as the fox guarding the hen house, but not only are you NOT being overcharged, but frankly if you want quality work those times are on the low side. Take for example replace engine sound pad in .25 (15 minutes) I defy you to remove the old pad, clean off all the old glue residue and pad remnants, r&r the hood shock, position the new pad, and glue it in correctly with all the edges lined up and even with the rear edge of the compartment so all the retaining tabs are even with the edge of the pad. Oh, and by the way you cannot use any time to prepare for the next job, flat rate times don't allow for cleaning up, drawing the parts, picking up or putting away tools, or cleaning the car of finger prints when you're done, putting the car on a lift or jack stands........etc. etc. You see my point I think on the impracticality of flat rate times and quality work.

Okay, I'm done ranting

Thanks for providing your perspective.
Please note, that the task was to "install" not "replace" the sound pad. The old sound pad had already been removed by the body shop - the mounting surface had new paint on it, so I assume it was "clean". Ok, maybe 0.5 instead of 0.25 hours, but certainly not 1.5 (at least in my opinion).

[edmayo]

Did I miss something...where did the 1.5 hrs appear for install of sound pad? I just looked at your list again to make I didn't read it wrong, and it does show only .25 for the sound pad. I agree, if all the preparation were already done, and with engine out, then it wouldn't take 1.5 to install the pad, but again, all I'm seeing you were charged was .25

[coma]

Did I miss something...where did the 1.5 hrs appear for install of sound pad? I just looked at your list again to make I didn't read it wrong, and it does show only .25 for the sound pad. I agree, if all the preparation were already done, and with engine out, then it wouldn't take 1.5 to install the pad, but again, all I'm seeing you were charged was .25

The times you see in the list are my personal estimates, not the times the shop has charged me. The times the shop has claimed compared to my estimates are double or more. For the installation (not replacement) of the sound pad (on a freshly painted clean surface) they actually have asked 2 hours, not 1.5 (I remembered 1.5, but having the bill in front of me right now, it's actually 2 hours they claimed for the sound pad install).