West Coast lap time info needed

[obrut]

Happy New Year

I've been doing a little research on a 1970's sport racing car. It has done (on slicks) the following lap times:

Thunderhill Raceway Park 1:55
Portland International Raceway 1:23
Laguna Seca 1:40
Daytona 2:05 (Rennsport III)

Does anyone know how this would compare to some early 911's??

eg. 2.0 HSR spec or a 2.7RS spec 911 on R tyres or a 2.8RSR etc?

Trying to get a feel for how quick this little beast is.

[jameshtaylor]

My 220 horse 74 RS replica with me at the wheel, close to stock suspension and 6" wheels has done 1:55 at Laguna. A real driver would cut that by at least 5 seconds. FWIW.

[Chuck Miller]

Ryan,

You didn't say what type of '70 Sports Race Car

In the '70's the States had basically 4 types of 'Club' (Club/SCCA/Sports Car Club of America) Sport Race Cars:
DSR - Crazy tiny cars with a 1000cc limit - usually w/motor cycle engines.
CSR - Small cars with a 1300cc limit - the favorite was (and still is for vintage) the Lotus 23's
BSR - A little bigger then the C's (but sometimes the same car) with a 2000cc limit - On small tracks these cars are sometimes STILL the fastest things on the grid - Chevrons, Marchs, Lolas ... etc. - 1100lbs/265HP
ASR - The club equivalent to the CanAm cars - Usually V8 powered...

Starting at the end of the '70's, there is/was also the Sports 2000's - kind'of'a Formula Ford with a 2liter single cam motor and a body.

I've seen all of these cars race through the years...

There was a VERY weird coincidence back in the day here in SoCal. Our two local tracks, Willow Springs and, the now deceased, Riverside Raceway (when using the short 'club' configuration) were equal in lap times within a couple of tenths..... We were always amazed, and then counted on, these two completely different configured tracks to be THAT close...

Anyway,

The 911's and 914/6's ran in C-Production at 2 liters with what I've heard to be from about 185 to 210 HP.

A great time for an 'Early' 911 on either of these two great tracks would be in the low 1:30 today (mid 1:30's then) and good 2liter B-SRC will go in the high teens today (low 1:20's then)

Where a good 911 will be hitting 130 on the back straight, a good BSR will be hitting around 165.....

I have the results book from the 1970 ARRC, American Road Race of Champions - The once a year 'best of the best' shoot out of all the SCCA 'amature' classes. The race in 1970 was held at Road Atlanta in Georgia.

The pole qualifiying times were as follows:
*The Porsches (all 914/6 that year) ran in CP againt the almost undefeted Datsun 240Z's.
- Johnson 914/6 - 1:37.8 (Morton 240Z pole- 1:36.0)
- DSR - 1:44.0
- CSR - 1.39.6
- BSR - 1:33.5 - (Milt Minter in Vasek's 906 set a lap record in the race of 1:32.6)
- ASR - 1:25


If you're talk'n a 2 liter Sports Race Car you're talk'n VERY fast car indeed.....

Hope this helps mate,

Cheers

[Bill Simmeth]

Since you have the RR III time listed, I assume it's an early 911? The event's web page still has results posted... link

The Gmund and Eifel groups are applicable to 70s 911s. Not sure what configuration you're looking at, but based on the posted times, its 2:05 time ain't shabby.

[ttweed]

Comparing lap times is very much dependent on the track configuration run and the relative driver skill. Both PIR and Thunderhill can be run with or without chicane (or bypass), which can make a 2-5 second difference in times. Check http://www.trackpedia.com/ for useful comparisons. Here is the Thunderhill results wiki: http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Thunderhill_Raceway_Park
Here is the Laguna Seca one: http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Mazda_Laguna_Seca
Here is PIR: http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Portl...tional_Raceway
There are also Oregon SCCA region track records for PIR with chicane and without chicane that include some vintage class and PCA results that may be useful--for instance, that last link shows a 914-6GT running a 1:20 at PIR, and a GT2 running a 1:10.

The POC track records for Thunderhill here show Chuck's buddy, Jose Alvarez, running a 2:06 in an HP class early 911, which is not far off what you are looking for. He ran a 1:46 at Laguna Seca with POC. I think the results for Daytona that jonesy78 linked to for the Rennsport groups could answer your question for that track.

For a sportsracer, the times you quote are slow, compared to modern ones, but probably typical for a '70s vintage one, depending on the class and driver. They seem to be in the ballpark of a Spec Racer Ford, which is a relatively slow 2-liter sportsracer. A modern DSR (1-liter) has run 1:07 at PIR and 1:38 at Thunderhill, by comparison.

HTH,
TT

[obrut]

wow - thanks guys, i knew i was asking the right people!

the car in question is a kmw porsche running a 3.0 litre RSR motor and a hewland - http://www.kmwporsche.com/

compared to the above times it is a pretty quick little jigger!!

[ttweed]

the car in question is a kmw porsche running a 3.0 litre RSR motor and a hewland - http://www.kmwporsche.com/

Cool car! With a 3.0 RSR motor in it, those lap times were probably not truly driven "in anger" but more in a "vintage racing spirit," preserving it's value (which is largely in the "coolness" of the driving experience and its vintage eligibility). For $165k, you could go a lot faster these days, if lap times were your only criteria. The Stohr WF1 DSR that set the lap records mentioned above could be had for less than half that money, but you wouldn't be driving one at the Rennsport Reunion.

TT

[Chuck Miller]

Ryan,

I saw this car a number of years ago at Dave White's race shop in Tampa Florida. Dave got the car from the museum in Germany, brought it to Florida, refurbished, maintained, and I believe, raced it a little from '95 to '03.

I probably saw it at the Riverside CanAm ....... but the 'small' cars weren't what you remembered back then......

This is a VERY cool car.... with REALLY cool stuff ...

But Tom T. is right, you can probably go faster for less... but wouldn't look as cool do'n it...

Cheers

[reedminor]

You're up to something then Ryan?

You could run with Terry in his EBS?

Justin

[911E&26R]

Hi Ryan,

I assume you have some seat time in a race car because you are contemplating running with some very fast company - I also would assume you are more a Marque fan than looking be ultra-competitive in a given class - For sure the sports racer will best the production car in most circumstances - however , unless you could better those lap times you would be hard pressed to stay with a 2 liter front runner like a Chevron or Lola never mind the fast larger displacement cars -

Just a racing view point - 165K will also buy a Chevron, Lola, March etc. The best bang for the buck IMHO would be a F Atl.

g