Finding FIA Historical Data

[Mr9146]

On and off for the last few months I've been trying to source homologation information on a particular 911 chassis number.

Unfortunately, all of my attempts to navigate the FIA's channels have been thwarted by bad web links, computer errors or no response to e-mails. Does the FIA have an "Archives Database" that I can access, or a person within the organization that handles such requests ... even for a fee?

Has anyone gone through this process? If so, what was the outcome? Is it like trying to get a Kardex from Porsche nowadays (impossible! )?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

[Mr9146]

Nobody?

Really?

[HughH]

Marco

I will chance my arm here, but from a position of no direct experience,and I am not completely sure what you are after, so take it for what it is worth (and I would love to have anyone add from actual experience in finding historical papers for a car).

I understand that generally a series of cars is homologated - not individual cars - ie like the attached pictures that give the front page of the homolgation for both Gp4 and then Gp3 status for the RS / RSR as the necessary numbers were built.

This is not personalized to any particular car.

However when it gets down to a particular chassis number as you seem to be looking for i would have thought that you would not be looking for homologation papers but instead an FIA or some other sanctioning body's identity document. In Australia it is a CAMS logbook, in Germany it is ONS papers.

These have changed over time, probably vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but ultimately are FIA documents, and I am far from an expert on them. I have seen some posts on this board regarding how to apply for modern FIA papers but not anything on old documents.

ID papers range from the original wagenpasses or ONS documents for cars such as the one pictured from the raceline site in Germany for a 1968 Gp 4 car which recorded all the details of the car and all the events it ran in through to modern identity papers such as FIA-HTP (historical technical papers) and FIA heritage certificates

These modern FIA papers seem to be either to show that a car conforms with homologation rules or is indeed the car the chassis number purports it to be. They do not (to my knowledge) have any details about previous competition history that say an original ONS or CAMS document would have.

A copy of a modern FIA-HTP paper for a M-Benz issued in Germany is shown below as well as one for a Corvette issued in France- is this what you are looking for?? I suspect not.

I have often wondered where all the ONS papers for old race cars get to when they are separated from the car - perhaps destroyed or lost, perhaps kept by previous owners as mementos and possibly occasionally used from time to time to "recreate" cars.

I somehow doubt that the link to the FIA heritage website or the "service" they provide is what you are looking for.

If you are looking for confirmation of race history of a particular car I suspect the local FIA affiliate where it had competition history (such as CAMS in Australia) might be a better place to search than the FIA which seems to be only looking at the "big picture" except for the modern ID papers shown in the link

[davep]

I may also be stepping out on a limb here, but during a conversation with Harry Bytzek about his 914/6 GT I asked about the log-books. I believe that he had two with the car however these were much later in it's career. He explained that in the IMSA days of 1971 & 1972 the log-books were not in common use, and were not mandatory, thus he did not have any from that period. Therefore, I suspect that other cars from the period might not have much documentation.

[Mr9146]

Thank you Hugh and Dave for your responses. Although not exactly the info I'm seeking, it's still quite helpful as I don't know much about homologation procedures and logs.

Maybe I should try to be more specific...

Let's say Porsche is homologating the 917 for racing. The factory builds the required number of cars and the FIA is called in to count them. Did the FIA log the chassis numbers of the cars it inspected during the homologation process? I believe that I once saw an FIA document showing a range of chassis numbers for the Carrera RS homologation - I will try to post a link if I can find it again - and I'm thinking that this info would exist for all vehicles inspected by the FIA for homologation purposes.

I just don't know enough about the process to know if I'm even looking for data that exists...

[davep]

Well, I know that Porsche had to present all 25 917 to get homologation because of a crackdown by the FIA. However I believe that in most cases only a representative sample of the car is presented for inspection so finding a complete list of such cars as TR's, ST's, RSR's and 914/6 GT's is a bit more difficult as these cars were converted out of serial production cars over a period of time without consecutive VIN's.

[Mr9146]

Well, I know that Porsche had to present all 25 917 to get homologation because of a crackdown by the FIA. However I believe that in most cases only a representative sample of the car is presented for inspection so finding a complete list of such cars as TR's, ST's, RSR's and 914/6 GT's is a bit more difficult as these cars were converted out of serial production cars over a period of time without consecutive VIN's.

But that's not to say a comprehensive listing doesn't exist, or that enough information doesn't exist that a list can't be compiled.

There is hope...

[72Group4]

Marco,

I went searching a while back and found this trolling through the cryptic FIA website. It seems like a historic homologation list - listing year, vehicle type, manufacturer and what category it was homologated for. I think this needs someone experienced to review this - for example I read somewhere else that there was a group change (from 3-4) in the late 60s-early 70s. But anyways...here you go...

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/F1738402CD97FDC3C125739A0053B6F9/$FILE/HomologatedForms-SortedByMake&Model.pdf

The only way I was able to access this was through the historic racing regulations part of the website....then access "previously homologated vehicles".

http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/histracing.html


regards,

A

[JohnT]

Marco,

In the day, neither the manufacturers nor the FIA contemplated Historic Racing. Cars were built, certified, and entered without much regard for chassis numbers. In fact Dennis Jenkenson laments this fact in his chapter on Maserati 250F's in his book, "Directory of Famous Racing Cars". Colin Chapman took this one step further when he built a number of Lotus 23's without chassis numbers. Some say to avoid paying the manufacturing tax on them...... shhhh.

Today major races (F1, LeMans, ALMS, etc.) all document the entrant's chassis number. Here is an Italian site which has a lot of information on cars and events from the undocumented period. http://www.classicscars.com/chassis/chassis.html Perhaps you can find something in this data which may help you? Since I don't know which model you're looking for I can't do much more. But I do know of a couple of places that have fairly good information on RS & RSR's raced in the 70s. Email me if you're interested.

cheers

johnt

[72targa]

I got very excited when I read the link for the FIA Heritage site...

I was saddened when I read that they have stopped the program...

http://www.fiaheritage.com/