Please help me with my 1971 911 S Targa VIN # Mystery

[jsoderbe]

Hi,

I was recommended on the Pelican forum to post here too. I was hoping someone could help me solve my VIN# mystery. I've just bought a 911 S Targa, believed to be a 1971 model year.

The sad thing is that the car earlier in it's life got a new VIN# in Germany, beginning with "TP" which mean "Techniche Prüfstelle". In english I guess it mean "technical testing facility". Besides the TP number, that is listed in the registration documents, I have two different numbers on the VIN# plate above the gas tank.

The old VIN# is semi-visible, and it is for a 1971 S Targa, and the car has S badging, S tacho, S oil system, but an E motor. Can't find the paint plate in door pillar either.

The really strange part is that the production number (located near the ash tray) is 0130003, and that is exactly what is stamped just above the "original" VIN#. The 0130003 stamped has the original Porsche font, with the star before and after. I am absolutely sure, I have looked at hundreds of Porsche VIN# and this is absolutely the way Porsche stamped the VIN#. Unfortunately I can't get it to show on a picture, since it has been painted.

The production number feels strange, the other ones I've seen starts with the number 1, but I am no expert on that.

There has been no welding anywhere near the VIN# plate (above the gas tank) or near the production number. The car has the same color everywhere, underneath the usual Guards Red overspray. The car can't have been welded together from two different cars, I would have seen that.

Anyone that please could help me to understand what has happened to the car? My main questions are:

1. Why would Porsche re-stamp the VIN#?
2. Can I find the original 911131XXXX VIN# somewhere else?
3. Why should TP in Germany dedicate it a new VIN#? Maybe someone from Germany can answer....
4. How can I prove it really is a 911 S Targa?

All this happened to the car before 1985.

Just to clarify; I haven't been fooled, I was aware of the history and paid for a car with these problems.

All ideas of opinions would be very appreciated!



Thanks,

Johan
__________________

[911T1971]

I hope I got your infos right:

1
If the TP number is registered in (german) papers and not stamped in the car, this means most likely just the german motor vehicle control i.e "Technische Prüfstelle" i.e MOT i.e. DMV.
Its usually called TUV but other TP did the service too. Both codes mean the car passed the mandatory safety check-up to be driven on the road. This check-up was usually renewed. Therefore this would not be a factory VIN but an ordinary number from a registration document printed by a state controlled TP.

2
If you do have two VIN's stamped in your car/trunk, things get difficult but if you found the production No. by removing the ashtray/knee pad, this number is most likely the original No. of this car.
As I recall, the ashtray/knee pad code is slightly shorter than the front area VIN plate code.
I recall there can be sometimes found a third one, a handwritten chalk-code right under the front windshield/dashboard area.

3
If the car was resprayed, infos got lost. Otherwise 2.2l cars had wheel areas, engine compartment and underside carriage sprayed in flat black. (actually a combination of several materials, see other posts).

4
Last but not least, if it happened "before 1985" this could also mean it maybe "happened" later than 1971.


(edited)

[Allen Henderson]

And it will be much clearer, please do post photos of all the things that will show up in photos and that you've mentioned. Thanks.

-Allen-

[davep]

The number under the knee pad will be a production number, only slightly related to the VIN. All coupes will have one series in ascending # as they were produced, and all targas will have another series. These series are independant of T, E or S models. The 0130003 is most unusual, but very low; I'll dig into that.
Remove the top dash pad, and see if there are crayon numbers on the left side of the dash.

[210bhp]

This may be of interest

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ash+vin+number


Regards
Mike

[fryardds]

Johan,

Can you post a photo of the Aluminum VIN tag? I am curious if it is the original one to the car or a later verison that was restamped.

Here is a photo of the production # that you posted on Pelican.

[HughH]

Is it possible that this car has been re-shelled at a very early stage with a factory supplied spare body shell?

I understand that it was possible to buy a complete spare "body in white" early on. Maybe the "013 0003" stands for something like 0 (spare parts shell) 1 (Targa) 3 (1973?) 0003 (third one supplied).

Certainly a regular production number would start with a 1 for 911 and then 0 for coupe/1 for Targa, then year number and then 4 serial numbers. Also I have a memory, but can't locate the evidence, that 912 production numbers start with a 2 rather than a 1.

Later on when the factory was supplying bare body shells to Kremer to make K3 935's the body shells were numbered in a similar way - ie 009 0001, (for 1979 body shell for Joest) or 000 0009 (1980 body shell for Dick Barbour)

So it is possible that this is a re-shelled car with a full official and numbered spare parts shell but with both the spare parts number (production number) and the original chassis number stamped in next to the fuel tank to show it was re-shelled. this may explain the TP papers as well - with the car having to re-pass a roadworthy check when re-shelled.

I repeat this is speculation but it does fit some of the facts in the case.

[jsoderbe]

Thanks guys, you are most helpful!

Karim, the TP number is actually stamped in the car, or stamped on a aluminum plate riveted to the body. That number is now the car VIN# in Sweden, meaning the title shows that number. I have understood that it is uncommon but still happens in Germany.

There is no original documentation left, since they scrap the import documentation efter 7 years. I'm sure there was way more information with those, since it's not easy to register a car in Sweden, and without the original VIN# it is almost impossible.

There is no aluminum VIN# on the hood lock plate, since it converted to G model.

Brian, thanks for moving the picture here. Looking at the thread Mike linked to, the font on the numbers are the same, however, my numbers is stamped farther to the left. I went out to have a look at the car, and there where no sign of numbers on the front or the back of the panel. Or is the position changed since that was a RHD car?

Dave, I'll reply to your email separately.


Thanks,

Johan

[HughH]

Johan

is the shell a G series shell or could it be a "SC" "D" series from 1983, which I suspect would not look too different?

The reason is that bare coupe shells supplied to race teams in 1983 to build up cars had chassis numbers 003 xxxx rather than the WPO ZZZ 91 etc number of production shells. Starkey has chassis 003 0009 documented as a shell supplied to Charles Ivey racing and built up as a group B turbo for Le mans in 1983.

If you don't have history before 1985 it is also possible that the 3 in the chassis number signifies 1983.

It is likely that such a shell would be fully galvanised - which may be a tell tale as to its age.

I would have thought that the factory could provide a history of chassis number 013 0003 if the right person is asked.