Please help me with my 1971 911 S Targa VIN # Mystery

[jsoderbe]

Hugh, I was thinking the same thing. But, who would be the right person? I'll start by examining the barely visible original VIN# to see if paint and options match what I have.

I think you interpreting the 013... where 1 as Targa and 3 as 1973 makes sense. If the car was in a bad accident, it was still valuable enough in 1973 to justify a re-shelling. In 1983 no insurance company would have taken that cost, so the car would have been scrapped.

And, it is not galvanised, it had rust in all the usual early spots before the PO repaired it. It is not G model shell, it has the two battery boxes and all the other caracteristics. The front lock panel was changed to a G model, that's all.

Still, there has to be a bunch of other cars that underwent the same thing, at least 0130001 and 0130002. Their stories would make a huge difference for me. If someone has info you don't want to disclose on an open forum, please please feel free to send me an email instead, johan at autopower dot se.

Could someone pleae share some information about the procedures around re-shelling at the Porsche factory?


Thanks,

Johan

[HughH]

Johan

Here the "right person" would be at the local Porsche distributor for Australia who handles the COA's etc. Our guys are very helpful and can tap into the factory files easily. I suspect your local distributor would be the place to start but it might be a bit more involved than an ordinary COA given the number. If you get someone who is interested and or helpful you may be surprised at how much information you can get provided you can show proof of ownership.

[davep]

I believe that the production # can be decoded as follows:
format XYZabcd
X=0 replacement body
X=1 production body
Y=0 coupe
Y=1 targa
Y=2 Karmann coupe
Y=3 Karmann 914/6 targa
Z= last digit of model year beginning 1969
Z=9 1969
Z=0 1970
Z=1 1971 and so forth
abcd is the sequence #

Thus 0130003 decodes as the third replacement targa body in 1973.

[peekaboo]

As far as I can tell the person asking has not provided a photo of the under the hood stamping. But I think he stated that there is both the orig. vin & the number in question stamped there with the 0130003 number above the correct vin. And both numbers have asterisk's on each side.

Regarding the under the dash number shown, it is the correct factory font (not easy to attain) . And I believe he says the under the hood stampings are similar correct font (with the addition of asterisk's / * on either side).

Since I looked into this and around fairly hard a few years ago. This is what I can tell you from digging then, and from keeping my eyes open for anything related since.

This 7 digit layout is what the factory used when manufacturing & selling complete bodies (for replacement or 'spare' - to built up/ie: normally race teams).

But in regards to having the original VIN along with the replacement / spare body number.

I believe when the factory did the reassembly , that is when you find both numbers. On all the 'spare' bodies that were built by various race teams ie: Kremer, Charles Ivey, Holbert , etc...

Those just have the 7 digit number.

Also on a 'spare' body or replacement body , there will be NO PRODUCTION NUMBER (it is not built in normal car production sequence).

I have not examined the under the dash stamping of any 'spare' / built by race teams bodies (I use the term 'spare' in this reference but obviously a team could be replacing a body on a damaged car also OR starting from scratch using other parts in their possession as far as the other parts required for a complete car. But I have been told by owners that only the 0XX 00XX number is there.

But I have seen under the dash stampings on 'replacement' body street cars (and i'm using the 'replacement' term here in refering to Porsche FACTORY rebuilt cars). I have only examined 1974 or later 'replacement' bodies. But they seem to have ended up being stamped both ways under the dash : either with just the 7 digit number , OR with BOTH the original VIN & the 7 digit number.

However normally, wether one set of numbers under the dash or two. The norm is asterisk's (*) are stamped on both sides of the number set/s also , as under the hood.

On this particular car (013 0003) since it is the correct font. I'm assuming that the asterisks were just left off and it's a geniune Porsche stamping (remember : never say never or always, mistakes / mishaps can & did happen. Besides who's going to go stamp that type of number that is already known to correlate to Porsche's practices other than Porsche. Besides that particular font not being easy to get. Someone trying to phony something would be stamping the original Production number under the dash & ONLY the original VIN under the hood).

One further note regarding the 7 digit number scheme. I have seen recorded (on lists only mind you) some 8 digit numbers as the ID numbers on some Porsche 911/930 based race cars. But since the 'spare' / 'replacement' body production was small (never reaching 100 as far as I know). AND all the recorded 8 digit race ID's , on various race event / race car records lists. Have been a number not only NOT high enough a number to require a 5 digit second grouping. But not even high enough a number to require the normal 4 digit grouping (The second group means the unit number of how many that were produced that year). SO i'm assuming that any 8 digit Porsche race car ID that you see chronocled on a list. Is actually a mistype/mistake with an extra 0 ?? It's possible that for some reason on race ('spare') bodies the numbering system expanded to became 8 digits after the 9th unit (as I see alot of 8 digit Porsche 911/930 based chassis numbers recorded) . But on street (seemingly Factory rebuild/bodies which were a replacement body for a street car with work done at the factory) , when a unit is above # 9 . They seem to remain 7 digits. An example: 007 0020 (a redone 1974 Carrera 2.7 / ROW). So the 8 vs. the 7 digit numbers ??? All I can say is the only 8 digit numbers I've seen are recorded for dedicated race cars. But again, I have never seen an 8 digit stamping in the flesh.

The street Factory reassembled cars I have seen, normally also have their original aluminum ID tags also under the hood (bonnet). But if one was damaged beyond use or gone before arriving for repair . Would Porsche make up a new one ? Who Knows?

Also from my research, I believe that in the 70's even Factory dealerships did not only NOT have the asterisk's stamp (normally) . They did not even have the correct number font stamps for chassis. Normally they only had the engine/trans number type font stamps. These happen to be the same font stamps that had been used prior on the 1969 model year for chassis stamps also. 1968 & earlier Chassis stamps have a 3rd font.

I do not think (as HughH stated) that in the 7 digit numbering system there is a differiation between decades. You would need to examine details on the body to see what series of body it is. This would then let you figure out wether it was a 73 vs. 83 replacement/spare body , as in this case with 013 0003. Of course you would have to be sure the spot you were examining had not been repaired yet again , and have had the area your examining's pieces replaced with later style pieces.

As to whether a car which was rebodied / reassembled at a Factory dealership would have one or both type stamps ?? From what i can tell . As I stated , I do not believe most would have the proper stamps. Would the Factory pre-stamp the replacement body for the dealership with the VIN in the correct stamp with asterisks along with the 7 digit number ?? I don't know. But I do not believe so. I have seen cars which have been front clipped by Porsche Factory dealerships in Europe during the 70's. Every one I have examined had been restamped with the engine/trans font stamps by the dealerships. Most without the asterisk's - one with.

Hopefully most/some of you are able to digest my explanation. This is what the system seems to be as far as I have been able to determine. Unless you are hooked into someone who's been around the factory for a good amount of time . Was familiar with whatever issue your researching from their particular duties there . And was around in the period of what your researching , or researched it themselves at a later date (AND feels like detailing things for you - which is rare). All you have to go by is examining what you can find out in the world. I'm just throwing out what I have noticed concerning it. Take it and chew on it , look around and see what you can come up with.

Here's an example of a rebodied 1977 Carrera 3.0 from France (this one , depending on whether that 3rd digit is an 8 or a 3 , could be a little odd. I'm assuming it is actually an 8 , even though it looks somewhat like a 3 . As in this type of number sequence, as guessed I think correctly by HughH above. I believe as with his quess, that the 3rd digit stands for the year the body was produced. The last digit/s are the number of the unit produced that year. So that is why i'm assuming it's actually an 8. Unfortunately on the under the dash stamp photo , the flash/shading makes it hard to see. Maybe someone can photoshop it , so that it's discernable. All of these body type numbers I've seen had as a 3rd digit, a number higher than the year of the body it was replacing , or the same. As in the same or a following chronological year, which makes sense) . I had a couple other examples but I lost them after a computer needed to have the operating system reinstalled. I seem to not have gotten all my files transfered during the process. The lesson , back up all important saved files on external storage always :

[fryardds]

Wow, cool photo showing the replacement body number.

All I can add are the photos of the RS 0068 I aquired years ago from a seller in Japan. I don't know what to make of the VIN stampings on this car but it may fit the scenerio you guys are talking about.

[HughH]

Brian
i don't want to hijack this thread too much but I have seen photos of other strange Vin stampings on RS's that I don't understand - but don't look like replacement shell numbers either. Here is one on RS #0037 when it was for sale in France in 2007.

I think I have at least one other similar one in my database - and from memory it is a French one as well.

I know Australian cars have an extra aluminum plate riveted on the floor near the Vin and other countries have similar things but this looks different again. Also it is not a good photo so the detail is hard to make out.

[jsoderbe]

Wow, that is great information! This is actually better than I would have hoped for.

Peekaboo; that was great information. I have sent you an email with more information. I have a few clarifications, which actually concur with your findings:

First, there is the asterics before and after the replacement body number, NOT on the VIN# stamped below. This would indicate that the dealership got the body stamped with the replacement number from the factory, and that the dealership then stamped the actual VIN# underneath. The font used for the original VIN# is NOT the original Porsche font.

Second, this is absolutely a F model body. The only thing changed is the hood lock panel, and I still have the original one left. On the picture you provided, I'm actually leaning towards that being a "3", meaning it was re-shelled in 1983 according to Hugh's findings. Then the sequence would re-start in 1980, which makes sense to me.

Third, there is no aluminum VIN tag. You could be right, it might have been damaged beyond repair. Or, I'm speculating that is depending on the car getting a TPxxxxx VIN# in the title, meaning the german authorities didn't accept the old VIN# nor the replacement body number as the VIN# put in the title. Again speculating, the german TÜV has always been very hard, and they might not have accepted using the original VIN# after a re-shell.

Fryardds; thanks for sharing. That would definately fit into the scenario, since the x-ing of the replacement body number could be common practise in some countries. Someone have tentatively tried to ruin my numbers too, and the purpose could be not to distract from the VIN# in the title. That statement sounded better in Swedish, not sure if it makes sense in English....

Hugh, no problem with hi-jacking. It's really hard to see, but it looks like it says 911 SC-F, and the asterics looks more like stars to me. Not sure what it means though.



So, in the light of this information; What do you think of the value of my car? Say that a nice driver 1971 911 S Targa is worth $55k, how much less would my car be worth?


Thanks,

Johan

[davep]

IMHO don't think that the rebody would have a great effect on value. The rebody is a little unusual, like a rare color, and may add enough back to balance out it's non-originality. I'd say it is less detrimental than major panel replacement.

Here is an example of a 914/6 replacement body VIN:

[peekaboo]

Interesting to see some more pics. This is a topic that previously had not seemed to have been delved into much anywhere online.

In viewing those two 73 RS stamps. To me , since we see the 7 digit spare/replacement body type no. present (mostly obliterated but I would believe that is it) on 0068 . It seems then that 360 0068 is a complete factory built replacement body. And I believe 360 0037 has probably had a front clip replaced. As to who did the work on either , that puzzles me - as even though the asterisk's do not seem to be present next to VIN's. It seems to be the correct chassis font on both. Since both the photo's of 0068 & 0037 are not very good & one with even more paint filled in over the numbers than original (remember Factory is Black here). It's very hard to distingish if the 6 & O's are the wider more rounded Eng. stamp font. or the narrower flat sided Chassis font , but they seem to be the narrow. It's lucky in that they are 1973's , thus it's certain . The easiest number to distinguish between the 2 font types is the numeral no. 3 . You can see that on both car's the numeral 3 is the round top 3 , with the engine stamp font numeral 3 is a flat top. That is why on other years (post 1969) unless the number has a 3 in it. You need a really good view of any stamping.

So we're left with 2 scenario's , either they were done at the Factory and for some reason did not get the asterisk's stamped next to the original VIN (never say never). OR the Dealerships or Factory Authorized Service Partners got the proper stamps . As to who stamped the 911 SC-F on 0037 , and it being there period ? (Obviously it's 911SC - F : RS2.7 - F series, but why? ) . That would make me lean towards it being done at the same time as the VIN , thus most likely away from the factory as I do not think they would stamp that. But again in reality you can never be 100% certain unless you speak to someone who was there ,or have their written accounts. And there is the chance that a Countrie's Registration Authorities could add something. But I do not think it would be something like that. In that case a Country's Governmental Authority Reg. system would add a complete different no. , or digits to the original VIN. Also, I cannot see if those are asterisk's next to the 911 SC - F. And once again, it is not out of the realm of possibility that the asterisk stamp could make it outside the factory . But I think it was uncommon.

If anyone is ever dealing with this sort of thing ,you might want to check front floor pans . Sometimes when cars are restamped (away from factory - Dealer ? Reg. Authorities ? I'm not sure which) things can be stamped there also.

On the photo of 0068, do I see the numeral 3 in the 7 digit replacement no. in place no. 3 (so meaning produced in 1973) ? On things like this you really need to remove all paint and look with a high powered magnifying glass. Then , you should be able to make out what was originally there with close study.

I have attached some color reversed photo's of both.

[peekaboo]

In thinking about strange VIN Stampings , other ID type stampings, and strange locations for VIN / ID stampings.

I remembered this one & went and dug it out.

What is that in the lower righthand corner - pretty strange no ?

RS 360 0399