Dear all,
I am trying to sort the FIA HTTP for my 911. It is a 1968 car currently running a twin spark engine and wide rear arches. It raced extensively in period but had narrow arches and a single plug engine at the time. The RAC are asking me to revert to narrow arches and a single plug engine for the 1968 HTTP. Does anybody have any proof of 911s (Not 911 R's) running either wide arches or twin plug engines in 1968?
As ever, all help gratefully received !
Cheers, Mike
Mike H
'68 911 T/R
Mike,
when you purchased this car, did Fantasy Junction turn over the detailed file they had telling all about the history and build record. I studied these closely and would be happy to send you a complete copy of everything I have.
The T/R rear flares and the 2.0 twin plug engine were both factory installed by first owner's request in '70....I believe the car is perfectly FIA legal and complies with all specs.
It might be worth your time to go through the papers and argue you case.
JZG
Before it became Ruprecht, my Porsche was a '70 911 T
Paying member No. 895 since 2006
" slavish adherence to originality wasn't for me, because the car wasn't as good as it could be."
Rob Dickinson's response when asked what motivated him to build Singers
raj +1
The car could be legal according to 1970 rules with a twin plug & flares and simultaneously illegal under 1968 rules. It's all in what was legal when. I have the FIA papers for the SWB 911 through 1968. Unfortunately they're 1.18 mb and the max file size accepted on this board is 976 KB. PM me if you want a copy (22 pages in a single .PDF file)
johnt
If you only need an HTP and you are looking for papers for Period G1 then there shouldn't be too much problem if you are using the 1968 911T Homologation Form and you are clearly having to deal with fairly zealous scrutineering.
There is good documentray eveidence that Dan Marguiles ran a RHD 911 T/R in the period and Autofarm, who sold the car some time ago should have some information and may be able to help find a history fileand I think you can find good evidence on the web.
This car ran in Group 4 and I am fairly confident it had a 911/20 motor.
The car had narrow rear arches so it may not help with the flares. I fel sure that Appendix J of the period allowed flared arches in Group 4 and I believe that I have some Group 4 papers for the 911T that show a photograph of flared arches.
The Part Number of the typical arch is certainly stated on the Homologation Form and should help with the argument.
I will dig out my Homologation Forms later today and make sure that my memory isn't playing tricks.
Gents,
Firstly, thank you as ever for the breadth and knowledge of your replies.
I have perhaps been a little imprecise in my question with respect to the flares. I have quite a few pictures of my car from 1968 and 1969 running with the mild "T/R" flares in FIA approved races. The bottom photo on this page is from 1968 and shows the mild flare http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...light=ultimate . Currently the car has the considerably wider rear arches that were fitted sometime between 1969 and 1972 and I am wondering if any cars ran in period G1 (1 Jan 1966 to 31 Dec 1969) with such larger arches? My basic research indicates probably not but I thought that if anybody was aware of something they would be on this site...!
With respect to the twin spark engine, I will try to follow up on the Marguiles car to see if that helps. Again, my basic research leads me to believe that the spec that my car ran in 1968 (Carrera 6 pistons, cylinders, cams but single ignition) is probably as far as the cars went in Group 3 and 4 but I am not certain. Ultimately I may well return the car to true 1968 spec (single plug and mild flares) anyway but it would be nice to have the choice.
Thanks again for your input.
Cheers, Mike
Mike H
'68 911 T/R
Raj,
This is a shot of the car from the rear and it was indeed running with 7R wheels. The photo was taken by Jutta Faustel on 8 Sept 1968 at Flugplatz Rennen ULM. I have cropped it a little but it shows the rear profile of the mild flares quite well.
Cheers, Mike
Last edited by Chuck Miller; 03-11-2011 at 04:43 AM.
Mike H
'68 911 T/R
Sorry about the orientation - computers were never a strong point!
Mike H
'68 911 T/R
As you have said the 'narrow' arches were part of the initial Homolgation Form and not an issue (excuse the poor scan)
The larger flares were homolgated on Extension 4/2V which was dated 7/70 which is outside the scope of Period G1 I think. (The identical photograph is also used on Form 607 which is the 1969 911T on extension 2/2V again dated 7/70)
Just for interest the Titanium Con Rod is homologated on Form 577 Extension 3/2E dated 10/69
The Twin Plug head is also shown on Form 577 (Doppelzündung) and unfortunately on extension 4/2V again dated 7/70.
If you refer to Appendix J for 1969 Article 263 permits the same modifications as permitted in Group 2.
Article 260 of Group 2 permits a change of carburettor size with certain caveats - none of which I believe affect the use of 46IDAs.
There is no mention of 'Double Ignition Systems'
In Appendix J of 1971 Double Ignition could have been used in Group 4 without homolgation provided that the second plug could have been installed in an otherwise standard cylinder head.
It all looks a bit tricky for Period G1 unless, as you have already stated, there is good evidence.
I must say I had always been under the impression that several 1968 911Ts were fitted with 901/20 motors and ran on Group 4 but it does seem difficult to prove prior to 1970.
Last edited by chris_seven; 03-11-2011 at 05:14 AM.
Raj,
For an HTP for Period G1 then I think proof of Twin Plugs in 1969 is OK as the date of qualification for G1 is 1/1/1966 to 31/12/1969.
I think the issue may be that it might have run prior to the homolgated date which seems to be 07/70 but in Group 6 as a prototype or in events that were unclassified.
I think it will be important to see what classification Twin Plugs cars ran under prior to 07/70 as I beleieve this will be part of the issue.
If I have understood correctly, and I am not 100% confident, the car would have had to have entered events in either Group3 or Group 4 to be able to be entered as either a GT or GTS under Appendix K rules.
I have some information abouy the Margiles car buried somewhere and will try to find it over the weekend.
Raj,
I agree completely , for example that the early Polo Red Car used on the first Rallycross held in the UK in 1967 was fitted with a 901/20. It certainly had large Girling 4 pot front calipers which were never homolgated, they are still fitted to it now.
I also believe but am not 100% sure that the car used in the British Touring Car series in the Sixtes and was homologated in Group 2 had a Twin Plug engine, which could never have been correct but still ran and won.!!!
It just shows how much more professional every thing has become in the last few years.
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