Buying a "History Car" question

[Minoclan]

I think that this may be a dumb question BUT I have been on Porsche websites for years and I still don't know how people come across real "R" or "ST" cars to purchase. Can you give me some hints?

[super9064]

I think many of these cars change hands by word of mouth. Surviving Rs and STs probably number less than two dozen. If you really want one, that's a short list of phone calls.

" If you have the means, I highly recommend it" FB

[HughH]

There are also a few places, especially in Europe, that specialize in them and have regular transactions (and a potential client list to offer them to as they come up)

For example Edmund Harris had an ex Targa Florio ST for sale a few months ago (from memory it was the Strahle car from 1972) Maybe still there but he doesn't have anything listed on a website to stop tyre kickers - if you want one you call and ask him for one.

also Elevenparts in Switzerland has an Italian 1968T Gp3/4 with targa florio and other competition history for sale. If i had the money spare i would probably buy this ahead of a ST provided it checked out OK.
There is also a 1970 2.2 ST (911 030 1014) at Jan Luhn in Germany. It is supposedly a Nurburgring winner (but i think it has been there for more than a year so either there is something not quite right about it or it is too expensive)

there would be a similar number of people in the US who would be able to source them as they become available, or for extra money pry one loose from a current owner

[naparsei]

Contact brokers, as mentioned, like Edmund Harris, Starkey, etc. They know where the cars are, they know who is thinking of selling, etc.

[peekaboo]

There are also a few places, especially in Europe, that specialize in them and have regular transactions (and a potential client list to offer them to as they come up)

For example Edmund Harris had an ex Targa Florio ST for sale a few months ago (from memory it was the Strahle car from 1972) Maybe still there but he doesn't have anything listed on a website to stop tyre kickers - if you want one you call and ask him for one.

also Elevenparts in Switzerland has an Italian 1968T Gp3/4 with targa florio and other competition history for sale. If i had the money spare i would probably buy this ahead of a ST provided it checked out OK.
There is also a 1970 2.2 ST (911 030 1014) at Jan Luhn in Germany. It is supposedly a Nurburgring winner (but i think it has been there for more than a year so either there is something not quite right about it or it is too expensive)

there would be a similar number of people in the US who would be able to source them as they become available, or for extra money pry one loose from a current owner

HughH. ,

I think this green sunroof car you list was at J. Luhn's at some earlier point in time , in an earlier body configuration (ST flairs , but most likely added later in life). It was said to have originally been delivered to Hahn Porsche in Stuttgart for Antti Aarnio-Wihuri of AAW Racing (and I believe he..Wihuri...might have been the/a Finnish Porsche Distibutor ?). He also was a driver himself (1969 Monte Carlo Rally for one : Entry No. 61 / A. Aarnio-Wihuri - Matti Kolari / 911T).

In the write-up which accompanied the earlier J. Luhn ad. , it stated that it was beieved to have been entered at the 1970 Nurburgring 1000km. ...but stated to be surmised to entered by Hahn ? (the car WAS suppose to have been delivered to Hahn).

But if it WAS there (Hahn entered no 911's ...only a 914/6), it was more likely entered by AAW themselves (No. 79 / Fröhlich - Pauli Toivonen / 911S......finished 14th overall ?).

Then I quess it went to Gunter Bühl , who finished 1st overall at the 1970 Nurburgring 36hrs (4 months later) with co-drivers Klaus Rang & Hans Schuller (the car has 'Müller' listed as the 3rd pilot on the fender graphics in the current J. Luhn photo. But Frank de Jong has 'Schuller' as the 3rd pilot ...and he is normally pretty accurate):

http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...g%2036hrs.html

The only thing strange is I have 030 1040 attached to this photo that I am posting here....which is obviously the same Gunter Bühl - Klaus Rang / Nurburgring 36hr. car (not at that event however).

Did I make the wrong note of 030 1040 ??? ........and this photo (and car currently at Luhn's ) is actually 030 1014 ?

Or are there two green cars in this mix/history (and BOTH with sunroofs) 030 1014 AND 030 1040 ??

(and they are getting confused with each other ...and possibly not just confused by me now , but
each possibly being confused with each other's history for some time ?) .

[HughH]

I think that there is only one "sunroof ST"
I got the chassis number when it was for sale at Jan Luhn in 2008 in wide body form and condor green with white stripes. since then it has been taken back to narrow body 1970 form and the paint colour changed back to (i think) the original green. In all the times i have seen it for sale it has had the same number and the photos of the numbers are clear to read.

the car has been for sale at least 2 times in the past 5 years and by all accounts has had a fortune spent on restoring it to the current state with lots of NOS parts etc - i suspect the price is the thing that is stopping it selling

by the way i don't have 030 1040 listed as a ST (not to say that it isn't one - i just don't have details)

[peekaboo]

OK.

Well , besides finding old ads from 2008 (flaired) ....and 2009 (flairs gone) both stating SOLD (I guess it's up again since ....or the 2009 sale fell thru).

Was this car delivered with a twin plug & significantly hotter internally 2.2 ? (as in pistons & cams , I don't think so......as it is noted as originally being delivered with a type 911/02 motor).

To me , a 1970 911 monikered today as a Factory 'ST' , would be an even more competition 1970 911 . Which would have originally been fitted with either a type 911/20 or 22 (2.247 L / 10.5 CR / 230bhp) . Or a type 911/21 (2.380 L / 10.5 CR / 250bhp). Or lastly available late in year , a type 911/70 (2.494 L / 10.5 CR / 275bhp).

Even though I do not think 'ST' was a term used in period. I associate it today with cars originally delivered with the even more competition motors as listed above for 1970(as an example per year..... and usually wider arches as they were available in 1970 also...and obviously beyond) .

Not just Rallykit and/or Sportkit optioned motor examples.

But maybe that is just me.

*I got those type motors above from Frere's info. listed per 1970. But maybe they were not very common in 1970 even in competion cars. As Boschen - Barth do not list very many cars with them :

1970 type 911/20 : 9110300001 - 0003

1970 type 911/21 : 9110300949

1970 type 911/70 : As stated , Frere lists this as "70-71" , Boschen-Barth as "1972"

And something else is weird on the Boschen-Barth list (albeit this is an old edition). The exact same VINs listed above for type 911/20 (2.3) & type 911/21 ("2.4 proto") ...are also listed as "2.2 Rallye" .......I'm not sure if this is accurate . Or if it is reality that only 4 cars were built (and those 4 chassis fitted with both type motors). Maybe when the list was made for this edition of the book not all examples had been compilied/identified ?


Boschen-Barth do not list any 2.2's hotter than 180hp , even on their race page.

Obviously , this is not my ballywick. I'll bow out now.

[boxster03]

Or fake one