FIA Historic hill climb/rally regulations

[Flat-out 6]

Hi
I just got my first ever Porsche ,it is a 1971 911 2.2s
It came with a wide body kit like the ST...and an RS duck tail rear spoiler
Im planning to change it to a race car...then I decided to also make it compatable with the FIA Historic race car specs
I read a lot of documents,it got me a bit mixed up...

When I first got the car i was planning to replicate the 1973 2.8 RSR Martini car?(is it acceptable with the FIA ...dont think so)

If I go with the ST 1970 or 71 look with a 2.5 upgrade and twin spark heads...is accepted?(thinking of the yellow/red 1970 tour de france winner)

It is clear in the apendix K that the 915 gearbox is not acceptable on pre 1972 cars

also

1.2 Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars,
or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international
competition history complying with the International rules of the period.

Does this article mean you can replicate a car to exact specs on any base model ex can i turn a 912 into an RSR if i have the original parts?

My car would be in G2 category in Apendix K

Homologation number would be one of these 2 below

Hom. Grp Make Model Cyl. Hom. Date ASN Ext
3005 3 Porsche 911 s 2195 01.01.1970 D 0
3025 3 Porsche 911 s (2195 & 2341) 2195 01.04.1970 D 8

Can anyone advise which way to go from here?



regards

[Giovanni]

hi,

I'm not the very expert about this topic, but I can give you some vagues answers to your questions.

i was planning to replicate the 1973 2.8 RSR Martini car?(is it acceptable with the FIA ...dont think so)

the rsr prototipe is not accetable for FIA (if I remember correctly the martini rsr was a 3 liters), but the "standard" 2,8 rsr is acceptable ... the omologation form is the same for rs 2,7, rs 3,0, rsr 3,0. If I rememeber correctly the homolagation number is 3053

the same apply for all the other model: you have to buy the homologation form and be sure that your car has not illegal specs. Then I think that for historic races the fia did some modifications to the original homologation forms; for example, on a 2,8 rsr it is possible to use the 930 3,3 turbo brakes..

Does this article mean you can replicate a car to exact specs on any base model ex can i turn a 912 into an RSR if i have the original parts?

yes, you are right. For example I built a GT class, fia acceptable, 911 rs 3.0 from an 1979 sc.


bye

Giovanni

[JohnT]

The answer is that "it depends".

You don't say where you live or are planning to compete and this makes a big difference in the historic racing rules. Few vintage racing clubs in the US pay much, if any attention to FIA rules for production cars. Many are more focused on conformance with SCCA rules. Some require racing provenance (which would preclude a 1969 192 being converted today, but would accept Tony Adamowicz's original TransAm winning 1968 912/911). You have to pick the club with which you wish to race and then follow their rules. If you're thinking of racing in Europe, then the FIA rule set will probably apply. Be aware here that most of the Major Events will have a surplus of entries so cars without real racing provenance may be difficult to enter.

Rally and hillclimbs in the day permitted modifications not allowed in racing (witness the 911R acceptance in Hillclimbs and the Tour de France). I believe this remains the case today. I guess one could prepare the car to the most conservative rule set (probably racing) and then enter the other events at a slight disadvantage (from a preparation point of view).

I think vintage automobile competition rules are just like real estate; the most important things are location, location and location.

johnt

[chris_seven]

Very interesting set of issues - specifically in Regard to FIA use and obtaining an HTP.

A wide range of cars can gain HTPs but there are some cars that are not well catered for in some of the FIA championships so there are two issues. Eligibility and then finding suitable races.

The 2.7RS was originally homologated into Group 4 on 1-1-73 on Form 637 which also covered some of the mods used on the RSR.

Papers 3053 appeared 1-7-73 and homolgated the RS into Group 3 and also lists the mods permitted only in Group 4.

Papers 3053 also, as has been stated, cover the 3.0RS by extension and hence the 3.0RSR as well.

Papers 3005 and 3025 are relevant to STs but not to the RSR.

The 2.3 ST (1970) was based on a 2.2 and was Fuel Injected. The 2.5ST was based on a 2.4 and was either injected or used 46IDAs .

It would be interesting to look at Form 3025 to see of this covers the 915 transmission and if so from which date it was homologated. I would assume that it it is after 1-1-1972.

I think that the 1970 TDF car was a 2.4 (2395cc) and used Webers. If this ran in a Protoype Class then there could be some issues as the 2.5 litre cars were based on the 2.4 engine which didn't hit production until 1971. I am not sure when this capacity was homologated. There may also be an issue about using carbs on 2.3 engines.

Appendix J of 1969 which was also in force in 1970 did not authorise any change in stroke and limited re-boring in Group 4 to 1.2mm hence the 1mm bore increase of the 2.2S to the 2.3ST.

If the 2.4ST used on the 1970 TDF was a Protoype it may still be possible to obtain an HTP but it may be difficult to find entries in championships for such a car.

If the 70.4 stroke was homologated before 1972 then you should be OK. I am afraid the devil will be in the detail.

With regard to twin Plugs, I think that this must be listed in the Homologation Form as there is no mention of this modifiction being permitted in the 1969 version of Appendix J.

The 1971 Appendix J does effectively permit the use of Twin Plug Heads (See Article 260 - 1971 Appendix J).

Both would have to run in G2

An RSR replica would be in Period H1.

Both STs and RSR would have to be entered a Competition Grand Touring Cars as they are Group 4. The 3.0RS could run as a Grand Touring Car as it was Homolgated into Group 3.

It is the specification of the car that governs the period it runs in not its year of manufacture.

See Paragraph 3.0 Appendix K

3. DATE CLASSIFICATIONS AND DEFINITIONS
3.1 A car will be dated by the specification of that car and not necessarily by the date of build.

Using a 1970/71 bodyshell to build an RSR could be a bit tricky as there are some detailed sheet metal differences to the rear parcel and seat back area that may not be popular. Also the rear suspension mounting towers moved in the 72 Model Year and would cause some issues with the 'short' RSR trailing arms and damper mounts. I would check which type of parcel shelf is in your shell.

I think that this fact would make it difficult to use a 912 shell as a donor without significant work. Also the front suspension towers changed angle after a few years and would also be different on the RSR.

I hope I may be wrong about a 2.5ST and will try to find time to dig through the Homologation Forms.

[Bernard]

In the FIA homologation Form 3025 there is two dates about the 915 gearbox (document 3025 4/2E):
Beginn der Serienfertigung mit nachstehenden Änderungen-Juli 1971
Datum der Antragstellung-November1971
The last page in the homologation form says in French: Extension 4/2E-Debut validate 1/72 so I guess this is the date that counts.

[Flat-out 6]

Thanks to All...
Lots of good information
I guess the first thing to do at this point is to get my hands on a 3052 form
After reading this i guess the RSR martini option is "out" for this car
and truthfully im shifting towards ST s.....I like the TDF car since my car has the same arches and the car looks nice...i can remove the duck tail and keep it for future projects
I have some time before I start with buying the parts for this car (i need to sand blast,start with body work and paint job...)
I hope the 2.5 is acceptable since it is the last upgrade of that era and the most powerfull before the 2.7rs
I still have to figure out the suspension acceptable upgrades...gearbox...limited slip so back to 3052


Any one knows where to get these forms from?

regards

[Giovanni]

be carefull in choosing the right safety equipment (i.e. homologated roll-bar, seats, fuel tank...)

[chris_seven]

The increase in stoke is also listed on the same extension (4/2E) as the 915 Transmission and again the start of validity is stated as 1/1/1972.

I think this means a 2.5 litre engine would have the same issues as a 915 transmission and may not work for a Period G2.

I would get in touch with your ASN and speak to one of the Scrutineers authorised to issue an HTP and raise this issue and try to establish eligibility.

Good Luck!

[RennTyp]

Just to confuse matters, I am aware of a 1972 ST that ran in Le Mans Classic 2010 in PLateau 5 (66-71) with a 2.8 engine. It also ran in CER with the same configuration. Go figure!

[Flat-out 6]

Just to confuse matters, I am aware of a 1972 ST that ran in Le Mans Classic 2010 in PLateau 5 (66-71) with a 2.8 engine. It also ran in CER with the same configuration. Go figure!

Do you have any documents or information about this car,a picture who built it....

Chris
I think you are right ,i should start contacting an Fia scrut...we ll se where it goes

Giovanni
Safety details...im familier with them ,I have prepared a couple of modern race cars FIA specs
Unless you mean that i should take into consideration a special roll cage design that goes back to
the same era

Regarding the TDF Yellow/red car i like, does any one have spec details
Engine base is 2.2s bored to a 2.3 240bhp
Fuel injected right...anything special "direct injection" or reguler mechanical 911s
what is the piston comp 10:1 , 11:1, 12:1??
Twin spark?
Valve size?

Gearbox upgrades?
Gear ratios...

You know any info or link will do
i found these videos last night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W62WTrbpG8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6AzA...Bul7ZBTBsDaT-Q

Thank you all