Vintage, NOS, collectible Porsche parts, and gold

[Frank Beck]

For those of us who like to have our investment portfolio consist of many things German, I find it fastinating as to which Porsche parts appreciate and which don't. I can honestly say that I'm surprised by how flat the sport seat market has been for the last few years (not a bad thing). I would have expected them to continue appreciating along with the cars especially since fewer and fewer seats show up for sale (Which makes sense; most don't get removed once installed in a restored car). Is it possible that demand is low because owners simply don't want them if their car was not delivered with them?

So my question for the peanut gallery: What is the criteria for value of parts? Since parts prices are a moving target and seem to have some hairy swings (just ask the guy who had to have one special part to finish his car for Parade or RR4), how do sellers determine pricing?

And is it just me or is there a jaundiced eye toward parts collectors? I find it hilarious that one can have a magnificent gathering of cars and they are viewed with reverance and called "collectors" but someone with a huge vintage parts stash is called a "hoarder". What's with that?

If this has been covered, I apologize. Please feel free to direct me to the thread.

Thanks.

[mshaver51]

I'm not a long time citizen of this particular community, but your question is interesting. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts...

Not long ago at the Stoddard Meet, I was talking to a goup of the senior members, and one of them observed, "I've had more than 50 Porsche 911s in my lifetime and not one of them had sport seats, yet more than half of the cars here have sport seats ... I must have owned the only 50 cars manufactured without sport seats." The discussion was pretty conclusive. Owners with restored cars were adding sport seats to make their cars seem more rare, desirable, and ostensibly more expensive.

A similar thing has occurred in American muscle cars. Once, it was cool to add every option available, regardless of the original configuration of the car. The additional options were believed to add to the rarity of the car. For example, how many of those guys replaced their original engine with the biggest possible block, fuel injection, etc.? As those cars became more historic, the historic accuracy and documentation became more important, and many muscle car owners have 'switched back' to whatever was originally delivered.

Therefore, if you'll forgive my speculation, it seems that the trajectory of most vintage autos is similar. They go through a period of 'whatever's cool,' and options/efforts to make their cars more rare and desirable, but in the longer term -- if the cars are true, long-term, collector cars -- there is eventually a market premium on historic accuracy, i.e., documentation, matching numbers, etc.

In my mind, that explanation would also conform to the demand for COA's, and would explain the current flat market for sport seats. Because of the 'cool'/rarity factor, I suspect that there is a higher percentage of sport seats still alive than the cars that those sport seats originally occupied, and at the same time, owners are going back to original equipment per the COA.

I might also add one final observation about sport seats. They look cool, but I haven't found them to be very comfortable, at least for my current body shape (round). There's no sense in going for a drive and being uncomfortable the entire time. But that's just me....

As to having a "stash of vintage parts," no offense, but parts don't function. I derive pleasure from driving my cars. Having a complete car's worth of NOS parts and not assembling them into a car lacks something. It just isn't my cup of tea. It just looks like a pile of "stuff." But if that's your preference, have fun!

[Frank Beck]

Funny. I am also thankful for all of the packrats- especially my mother and father. The collision resulting from their respective gene pools provided no hope that I would ever throw anything away. Anyone else have nightmares that they'll end up in a TLC show?

I will add this Raj: I have had people plead with me to sell them a part (and try to negotiate a price below market) to further the good of the hobby. But this same nobility somehow doesn't transfer to a discounted price when they sell their car?
Yanks could learn something from the Europeans- it's unbecoming to negotiate (at least it used to be), they just pay the asking price. It's a beautiful thing (when you're the seller. lol!)

[mrgreenjeans]

Example-here are carello headlight biodes(dual reflector) which are rare-collected by ferrari and italian car collectors,but i find it awesome on a early 911-simply stunning.There is a certain elegance to this headlight that the biodes don't have-yes,subjective i know.


raj

raj:

I am in total agreement ....this look is a splendid representation of a lost and bygone era.

I am fascinated by the character image they portray on ANY European car, but more specifically French- Citroen, Italian- Ferrari, or German- Porsche. The very earliest Ferraris emote the best image, but any early 911 with them truly renders a face one can only love.

; - )

[Frank Beck]

Excellent point Raj! The amount of time that it takes to source and procure parts can be exhausting. Many of us on this board do it for fun because we're sick but the shops need to do it as part of their living. Customers often times don't understand how labor intensive this can be and the time has to be accounted for.

The next time a qualified shop quotes you $100 hr for restoration work, consider it a bargain.

[uai]

I personally think that the sport seat (Recaro Idealsitz) is overrated. The only ones that are a bit comfortable are some semi-used old ones.
If you restore them (here in Germany) with the new foam parts from Sitzklinik they get way too hard and are everything but comfortable.
The other thing being is that the d'eser repros cost 1500 Euros each. For a lot of people the repros are "good eough" and hassle free so why pay for a pair of seats that are in need of restauration 2000 Euro and then 1500-1800 Euro for the restauration.
I for myself have found that a bit hoarding of old Buckets and Sport seats is quite nice, but I aim only for seats that are good enough to keep their original cover. I am already thinking of designing a modular system to fit various seats to form my personal Sofa of old Seats.

Cheers


Uli
Uli

[steve shea]

I have a parts stash simply because I thought I might need them for repair or replacement. Mostly 356 stuff. I've now quit swap meets etc. cold turkey. For a while it was bad. A toolkits, travel kits, A 4cam toolkits. Then electrical parts, orig relays, switches lights etc. Then steering wheels. Then the trinket era: 356 literature and original posters. Badges! I was addicted to badges. At one time I had all the 50's early 60's factory treffen badges. A collection of race track badges Avus, Solitude, Norisring, Osterreich ring, Nurburgring, Sachsenring etc. Then dated 356 wheel sets, dated Reutter hubcaps and on and on. I have now come to my senses and quit collecting/hoarding cold turkey. Collecting is too high maintenance for me now. Plus if I croak my wife will have to deal with a bunch of old junk. I do not have it cataloged or priced. I just know where it is. But I will return to swap meets. Only this time as a seller. I guess my stuff is good trading fodder but not many 911/912 folks need what I have. I agree about the sport seats although I do like them. Somewhat analogous is the ubiquitous Brazilian chrome wheels one sees at a 356 show. More chrome wheeled 356's than ever left the factory. It's boring. And, there are plenty of real wheels out there, cheap, to restore. Personally I think the painted steel looks way better with those gorgeous early 356 colors. Then there were the windshield wipers, then the early parts boxes. BOXES! WTF am I doing with boxes....... Back to the seats I think real original sport seats do add value and eye appeal. I think repros do not add value. My favorite repro seats are the Vintage Seats RS Touring with a nice upholstery treatment. Lets face it. There is a lot of posing with car ownership it just depends on what level one wants to pose. That said parts is parts and original will always have some value over repro at least to me. I have some original recaro sport seats in my 73S and the bus seats it was delivered with on the floor. SS

[RSTarga]

As one who used to remove broken, worn, parts from his car and toss them, I am now storing my old parts and buying more than I need replacement parts for just in case.
Wish I had my fog lights and sportseats back, although my aftermarket Recaros are more adjustable and more comfortable.

[ETexSpeedo]

As a long time "never-throw-anything-away-er", there are two true-isms as to value. Will I EVER need the part and how many do I have? My measure of selling depends on the attitude of the one who needs the part, are they the user and really need it, or just want it and then resells it, and are they honest about their intentions? Value runs from "I will give it to you" to "it ain't for sale".

[ibmiked]

Raj's 914/6 analogy notwithstanding (too few cars to make financial sense), I believe the harder it becomes to source certain items, the more likely the reproduction market is to come to the rescue. Look at Eric's stuff; in the case of his horn grilles the product he sells is several orders of magnitude nicer than you could get by sending a set of originals out for re-chroming.

I know that some of us here will only use NOS stuff on our cars, and kudos to you. The aftermarket suppliers will ensure the rest of us aren't competing for that original piece and driving up the price. I like to think of it this way, would you put an NOS Porsche piece on your '72 car if the Porsche manufacturing stamp was '73? Where do we draw the line when modern manufacturing can offer us superior, indistinguisghable replacements? An even better example is those guys here who are looking for date stamps like 10/71 for all four Fuchs. Has anyone ever seen a concours judge ask a participant to pull the wheels off a car for judging?

Anyway, fun to talk about this stuff as we all get to show a little of what makes us tick.

Cheers,
Mike