Issues/value of a US based 68T ?

[Greg D.]

A friend of mine -356 guy - is looking at buying his first 911.. it is a European 68T, that was imported illegally in the early 70s and seized. The current owner managed to buy it from a gov't auction, federalize it way back then, and it's all legit now... Color and interior were changed unfortunately, from a cool Orange/black to a less appealing and non-cardex matching burgundy/tan... I'm gonna go with him to check the overall condition and presence of the 68 specific bits... But assuming the car checks out condition wise, would the fact that this was not a legal US model make it worth *more* or *less* here, or does it not matter at all ? it's not for a flip, my friend keeps his cars forever, but it is some sort of a long term investment in a way. So we're trying to guess at a correct market price to negociate with the seller. So, same as the US 68 (L?) from that year, slightly more, or slightly less, assuming all things being equal ?

[304065]

It's a pretty rare car, the Euro T with first generation mag case motor wasn't made in large numbers and a lot of those are iron oxide.

This shouldn't sweat a 356 guy, but a 68 is the second-hardest street car to put back right-- a '64 being the first-hardest- due to the fact that there are a LOT of one-year-only now NLA parts in the 68. You clearly know this because of the "68 specific bits" but it bears keeping in mind, people who buy Euro 68Ts aren't buying them because they can smoke the balonies all the way from track out to apex, they are buying them because they are unique time machines.

So the paradigm for valuation is the same as any other SWB-- condition, condition, condition. Condition is the Latin word for RUST. That factor alone will swamp any other factors such as T vs. L. All other things being equal (another Latin Phrase, ceteris paribus which is what economics bring out when they are about to REALLY mess with you) the L is worth more than the T because of the trim level and power-- it was above the T in the pecking order back in the day, and I don't think being an Euro makes a huge difference, at least not to me.

[Greg D.]

Thanks, that was as informative as it was fun to read ;-)

Would you say color change is a huge deal ? Everything matches up to cardex, except for the repaint/reclothing of the interior to different colors...
In my book, lack of rust is more important than color, but...not sure the usual 10% discount or whatever applies in the case of a relatively rare car.

[TargaFlorio]

I don't think color change is a huge deal. I think there are 3 kinds of cars when it comes to paint:

1. Original color (never repainted or resprayed)
2. Original color with some respray.
3a. Completely Repainted cars in original color. (Original paint was removed and resprayed)
3b. Completely Repainted cars in non-original color. (Original paint was removed and resprayed)

In terms of value, 1 would be most valuable. 3b would be least valuable. 1 can bring a huge premium. As the saying goes, "It's only original once" so I don't think there's a huge different between 3a and 3b.

If the car is a non-US SWB 911, I don't think it devalues the car as much as the grey import 911s of the 80s etc. Some people would argue that the early EURO cars are more desirable because they didn't have the SMOG equipment (but it was quite easy to disconnect).
Others will argue that a 68T in the US should be more valuable because there are fewer of them here.

Using the 68L or 68 as a starting point in terms of valuation is a good place to start but like John mentioned above: Condition will be main determining factor.

Glad to see that there's another 68T in the US, there aren't that many of us here!

Ciao,
n.

[304065]

I'm going to diverge slightly from Nicholas' guidance above with regard to the color change.


Old Porsches are in one of three categories:

Original and you care
Not original and you don't care
Factory race cars

Factory race cars are so illiquid and unique that I'm not going there. They are in the tail of the curve for certain.

So that leaves original and you care, and not original and you don't care.

Original and you care: the height of valuation is a completely original car with original paint and interior in unrestored condition, as Nicholas says. These are ALSO illiquid and unique and don't trade very often, resulting in some outlier valuations. That's the original part. The "care" part is that there's something unique or significant about the car that calls attention to it. I have seen offered for sale completely original American-made cars from the 1960s that would put ours to shame in terms of adherence to the blueprint, that sell for $5,000, because nobody is really listening.

Ok, so that's the setup for thinking about it--- the Euro T is close enough to original that you would want to put it back, and it's one of those all-or-nothing things-- a completely original Euro 68T is pretty interesting, but if you found one that had 930 flares it would put you off your lunch. (Unless of course it were Gytis' white T/R hiding under them, but that's another story. . . ) So the factors that diminish value are those that take away from that originality, and the extent of the diminution is about 1.5x the cost to put things back. First you have the original acquisition price of, for example, a new interior from Tony Garcia, and then on top of that you have the depreciation hit that derives from the fact that you NEVER recapture the full value of improvements in the long term value of the car. So you pay up front, and then you pay again when you sell.

This is why the valuation discussion goes out the window in about nine seconds, by the way. It's like the universe of the first category bifurcates into unrestored cars that command outlier valuations, and everything else, all of which is a money-losing proposition if restoration to originality is the endpoint.

All right, then there's the second category, Not original and you don't care. There are lots of cars out there with reversible modifications that can easily be undone, that facilitate greater enjoyment of the car. These are really first category cars-- my 71E race car is a great example. With a little effort it could be returned to street trim, with very few scars from its two decades as a race car.

I think this why our community has gravitated toward "period correct" accessories as a way of modifying otherwise original cars. If you buy a 911S with modern Hella rally lights, I would see that as something to be removed. If you buy the identical car with period-correct lights, even if you take them off the car, they have collector value, so you end up with greater valuation in the aggregate-- both from putting the car back to original, and the value of the "jewelry" taken off.

Somewhere along that path you cross over to the point where the cost to return to original is so great that you go over the top and forget about it. 911SC with a 3,6 shoehorned in? On the bubble. V8 anything? Over the top, poles tucked back. I can't imagine getting into a debate with a guy who has a V8-powered 914 about the correct rear valance, and suggesting diminution in value as a result of that lack of originality-- that ship sailed a LONG time ago, and the car should trade on discounted replacement value to a VERY small category of enthusiasts who are into that particular thing. Which is not to suggest that such a modified car isn't valuable, it's in a category where there is no market-clearing price for First category enthusiasts, leaving the smaller market of second-category enthusiasts to value it.

Where you really get into trouble is trying to make a second category car into a first category one. This is why the first thing I thought of was, "make sure you have the 68- only parts" because trying to simply FIND them, even if you get them for free, is a big challenge. First you have know what you are looking for, then you have to look, and even with the Internet, it's still a needle in a haystack.

Anyway enough rambling about valuation paradigms-- I would say that non-original color and interior ARE value detractors, the paragon of valuation for a Category One car being original, and everything else having a discount factor to get back to that theoretical ideal.

Which is not to say that buyers don't make emotional decisions. Probably all decisions are emotional.

The final exception before I close is Polo Red. Let it be said that one who undertakes an otherwise perfect restoration and deliberately moves AWAY from Polo Red to another color from the SAME sheet, shall not be penalized in the eyes of the enthusiast community or Herr Doktor, may he rest in peace. There are too many Polo Red cars. First thousand numbers? Polo Red. 232 in your neighbor's barn? You better believe it's Polo Red. Under a crumbling wall, covered with an oilskin tarp in Beirut? Polo Red. Anyone who takes a Polo Red 930 (I know they call the color something different, but it's the SAME color) and changes it to Irish Green with Tartan interior is IMMEDIATELY elevated to heroic status in the Pantheon of enthusiasts.

[Harvey Weidman]

Probably all decisions are emotional.

The final exception before I close is Polo Red. Let it be said that one who undertakes an otherwise perfect restoration and deliberately moves AWAY from Polo Red to another color from the SAME sheet, shall not be penalized in the eyes of the enthusiast community or Herr Doktor, may he rest in peace.

Tell us how you really feel about Polo Red....After all it was used by Herr Doktor for many a good rallye car...
I think if you like a color pick that one.... after all, you'll be the one driving it. Heck, I even have customers that just love their Seipa Brown cars...

BTW, I remember a Australian that couldn't figure out why we like white soooo much.
H

[304065]

LOL Harvey too true, I hadn't thought about the Rally Cars, painted Polo Red to scare spectators off the course! And the gigantic 1 4 7 on the door (later, big round white meatballs) covering as much of the paint as possible!

Of course I jest. I deliberately sought out and restored an Irish Green car, which only serves to reinforce the froglike aspect of our cars, but I like it just fine. Harry Pellow couldn't STAND a color he referred to as "Monkey Vomit Green" but said that some of his best cars were, in fact, that very color.

[mrgreenjeans]

304065

What an eloquent and concise thesis.

Brilliant deductive skill/ commentary..........

But, the huge elephant in the room, the 800 # Gorilla is the simple word :

Emotion

It makes grown, sane men do silly things like taking an original aubergine 911 with pepitas interior, change it to black leather and painting it Guards Red......oops I said it.
errrr India Red.....errrrr POLO RED.

The above made comments were heroically spoken . There should be awards of valor given for speaking them.

And Harvey, I don't even like white on 99% of most vehicles made in the world........just the one's that have sports purpose written all over them with a Porsche badge centered on the snout.

[joegt3cup]

Phew glad I dodged a bullet by selling my polo red 67 911 replacing it with a lite ivory 68S not to mention my sand beige 912

[Richard]

Not sure if this is even part of the discussion. But...first I agree...Polo Red was over used. (But if you like it...why not?). Second. Having owned a number of early 911/912 cars I have to admit that I love "white"....especially Light Ivory White...but also Grand Prix White. Remember; white in some form was the color often (most?) used on early 911 factory racers (911R, 911RS, 911RSR, 911SCRS, etc.) So...i.m.h.o, don't be negative on white early 911's. Clean and simple...yes. The early 911 factory race car color...yes, classy...yes.