Engine option opinions sought

[doigthom]

Long ago and far away in a distant galaxy I used to be a lawyer. Nothing frustrated me more that when somebody would come into the office for a free consultation and the totally ignore my advice. Nothing more satisfying than by not taking my advice, the buried themselves deeper. Knowing that, I am going to risk being one of those type of people and ask for some free advice with the caveat that I may ignore some of the best advice by being stupid.

I am already on the cusp of stupidity in that I am the guy who bought the decrepit '67 911S white Targa listed last year on the Samba and discussed here on the Registry. So far we were able to transport it to Dale Erdman's shop in Allentown without it splitting in half. Bonus was three petrified snakes. Dale has taken off the fenders, and doors, cleaned out the interior and front trunk and things look better than expected. Will post pictures soon as we get a little further along.

My question for the members is what to do about the engine. PO (2nd owner) informs me that after he acquired the car he became acquainted with Dr. Dick Weiss, the fastest dentist in Phillipsburg, NJ. Apparently Dr. Weiss campaigned a 911S in the 70's and entered Daytona, Sebring and Watkins Glen among other races. I have located records to substantiate that. He was probably racing on a shoe string and offered to rebuild the PO's perfectly fine engine if he could use it to go racing during one or two seasons. Strange arrangement, but then I've done crazy things in my life. Reworked the camshaft and added Jahns pistons (hot combo back then). PO says that the good doctor actually used the engine in some races. PO thinks that the engine was somewhere between 2.4 and 2.5 L at that point. When the PO re-installed in his car, the race setup proved less than desirable and PO took it to a fellow of some renown in Montclair, NJ. That expert had to cut down the piston skirts but turned the engine into a nice runner. PO says the engine is now approximately at 2.7 L.

This is the numbers matching engine. Question is what to do with it. Does the racing history add any provenance to the car? Can the engine be sleeved back to 2.0L; 2.2L; 2.4L ? Should I just mothball the engine and look for something more appropriate to install? Looking towards overall value if future sale.

Any advice, opinions and/or criticisms would be appreciated

Thanks

Tom Doig

'67 911S targa
'67 912 targa
'68 912 coupe

[Bill Meyer]

Tom, If it's the original matching engine and you'r planning to spend money on engine work, then I would focus that money and time on this engine. If the case has been opened up to accept larger cylinders then I would think you are sort of stuck with that. ..but, that's not a bad thing at all. I have a 67S with an original 2.0, and I can say that with S cams on this size motor it can be sort of a dog down low, so I wouldn't fault a early S if had been over sized a bit. In the end I would just make sure you have the proper S cams and heads to preserve the "S" rev character, but with some much needed grunt down low.

[boba]

Yes, history can be a plus. The actual value would be based on documentation.

Until you confirm what the motor is there is nothing but speculation. As an attorney you would not speculate on such thin data?

[gsjohnson]

The engine was raced, not your car. So I wouldn't put much province into keeping the engine as it was raced. I doubt there is any siginficant value to keeping it "As raced" IMHO. You may be stuck with certain mods as a result of the engine's current configuration, but I would reverse mods where I should/could. At the very least, I would think that you would want a pleasant driver with some poop. As an example I have a matching numbers 68 911 and when it broke a ring and damaged one of the cylinders, I opted for 2.2 E PCs and a better cam...still matching numbers...I'm not convinced that I de-valued the car with these mods and it might even make it more desirable as a driver. Just my .02, althought the advice was free.

[carr911]

All you've got is the PO's word that the motor was raced. But the car wasn't.

Not sure how much $$ you are planning to put into the car. A lot of options

[304065]

Tom,

I understand your first paragraph very well. About the only thing worse than that is folks who pay a lot of money for professional advice and then don't take it, but that's another story. In any event, and for what it's worth, here's my take.

1. Not really anything stupid about acquiring 67S targa. Take your restoration estimate and double it, take your time estimate and triple it, and you're in the ballpark. When done correctly a 67S targa is an ultimate time machine, a very rare and special car indeed.

2. Matching numbers is very, very important. Motors are regularly restored that have had a fist-sized hole punched in the aluminum case from a thrown rod. So a mere boring of the spigots is a peccadillo. (A great legal word in itself)

3. Resist the temptation to restore the engine to something other than perfectly original. At 2,7 liters you could easily see RS levels of power around 215 HP. In a car with a removable roof rolling on 165 series tires? Also consider the following factors:

a. Original Biral cylinders have a very distinct fin pattern. Later 84mm Birals, or 89mm Nikasils, are visibly different to those who know what to look for. So to be original, restoration back to 2,0 liters makes sense. The technology exists to sleeve the spigot, I've heard of it being done.

b. What about the heads? Original 2,0 liter S heads have a particular identifying mark on the bottom, also barely visible, but there. It's likely that someone has swapped 2,2 liter heads onto your engine, as the cylinder-to-head mating is different for the larger cylinders, and rather than machining the early ones, people swapped them for the later post 1970 ones. In any event, this is something to figure out: if you have the original heads, use them along with 80mm Birals.

c. More power requires more oil cooling. At 160 HP, the S had the highest level of reliable power without external oil cooling. In 1969 when the power level rose, the Factory went to external oil cooling, so we can discern what they thought was required. Not saying you couldn't build a hot 2,7, but you would need external coolers and lines, and those stick out from 100 feet away.

4. "Looking towards overall value if future sale." Well said. One could alter that slightly to read, "looking to avoid being instantly upside down from a valuation perspective." Seriously, restoring a 2,0 liter correctly costs about $20,000, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The good news, if done in harmony with the overall restoration of the car, it becomes a value adder, not a value detractor. On the other hand, if the engine is restored to non-original specs, it becomes something you have to explain, which ultimately detracts from valuation.

The last point I would make is that I recommend undertaking this restoration as if you are NEVER going back to change things-- parts aren't getting any more available or cheaper, and the "institutional memory" around the 67S fades with each passing year, so it makes sense to do it to perfection the first time around. This can be frustrating, because it's a CAR, after all, it's supposed to be driven to be enjoyed, but a couple hundred hours of research before starting work will pay enormous dividends in terms of not having to retrace your steps.

Does your specialist in PA have a Celette bench? I would not undertake restoration of a Targa without one. All that chassis flex will manifest itself when panels are removed, and for the doors to slam and the car to track properly the proper alignment is essential. We used a Celette on my '66 . . . http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-New-Hampshire

Good luck!

[Richardnew]

Think torque. Whatever you do to the engine you want to maximize the torque curve. "You drive torque. You brag about horsepower."

Richard Newton