Question of Procedure

[Mr9146]

The current discussion in the For Sale section regarding RS#056 has left me wondering about a general procedural question regarding Porsche, engine case stampings, and factory replacement cases.

Obviously Porsche supplied blank cases to customers over the years. Obviously not all of the factory blanks have been used as they keep popping up from time to time. So, what happens when someone purchases a blank case from Porsche and transfers all their engine's guts over to the new case?

It's been my understanding that the new, blank case was supposed to be stamped with the car's original engine number and the original, damaged engine case disposed of. It's my understanding that when this work was performed by the factory a *Z* or an *AZ* was added to the number to indicate a replacement (I can never remember). However, if the work was carried out by an independent shop or dealer, a number of things may have happened:

1) The engine was restamped with the original number, but the stamps' font would be incorrect
2) The engine was restamped with the original number in the correct font, but no indicator was added to the case number to identify it as a replacement
3) The case was not stamped at all and left blank even though the original case was disposed of
4) The case was left blank and the original case was not destroyed but, instead, provided with the car and documentation blah blah blah

Obviously, there are a number of possibilities as to how this scenario would play out, but my question is more of "what is acceptable"?

FACT: Replacement cases happened.
FACT: Blanks still exist.

So, if you look at the landscape of our hobby from a card player's perspective I guess you could say that blank replacement cases are wild cards.

But the question then becomes: "How do you play the card?"

In the specific case of RS#056 I'd say that there does not seem to be clear intent to defraud, but the situation does raise valid points about raking people over the coals for having a re-stamped engine case in the car. I suppose what I'm looking for is a general barometer of what people consider to be acceptable and where the line is drawn. Who knows, maybe #056 lost #5 and holed the case which was replaced with a blank and stamped with the original number before replacement. Maybe all the guts of the engine are original to the car.

Only The Shadow knows...

[911scfanatic]

Great question, Marco. I am looking forward to seeing the responses and varied opinions.

[72targa]

Excellent question. I see at least two important aspects to the answer:

1) The original case would trump the replacement case in my opinion (kind of along the lines of an undamaged body panel vs. a repaired panel that has been color matched [hard to tell but never quite the same as the original])
2) Honesty is always the best policy

When you're driving the car and the engine is singing, do you really care? However, if you go to sell the car and find out that something was not disclosed when you bought it, are you happy?

Good discussion topic and thanks for asking.

[steve shea]

The most acceptable to me, and least value loss, would be factory replacement case, with documentation left unnumbered. I once had a 58 speedster with a factory replacement case and transmission. Both blank except for model stampings etc. with factory stamped KD for kundendienst and no other numbers. I was able to sell it for all the money at the time. Interestingly neither the engine nor the trans were destined for a 58 car. The engine was a 616/16 SC and the trans was a 741/2A. The car was raced in Europe and serviced at the factory. Who knows where the original drive train is and with the documentation I and the buyer did not care too much. Of course first choice would be the original.

[gsjohnson]

The real issue here is replacement cases of any sort affect the value in a negative manner. It's the same with any old 911T. I do not want to pay full value (nor does anyone else) for a matching numbers car, where the engine is not original to the car.

[Mr9146]

The real issue here is replacement cases of any sort affect the value in a negative manner. It's the same with any old 911T. I do not want to pay full value (nor does anyone else) for a matching numbers car, where the engine is not original to the car.

But a replacement case is just that, a factory replacement. If a factory blank case was stamped with the original engine number it is, by all definitions, a matching number engine because if the blank cases are provided by the factory for public consumption, and a person buys a blank and stamps the number of their car's original engine, they've followed "the rules". Right? Because at that point the engine is still original to the car ... it's merely been rebuilt.

Would it be any different if the car's original engine - replete with original case - was rebuilt? It's no longer "original" but does it hurt value.

And what about if the engine was re-cased at the factory? Is that also detrimental to a car's value?

It's a VERY slippery slope...

[Biancaneve]

I think the answer is purely subjective and depends on the customer expectations only. General agreement on the matter is simply impossible. In any case, "honesty+transparency" is a must.

[gsjohnson]

But a replacement case is just that, a factory replacement. If a factory blank case was stamped with the original engine number it is, by all definitions, a matching number engine because if the blank cases are provided by the factory for public consumption, and a person buys a blank and stamps the number of their car's original engine, they've followed "the rules". Right? Because at that point the engine is still original to the car ... it's merely been rebuilt.

Would it be any different if the car's original engine - replete with original case - was rebuilt? It's no longer "original" but does it hurt value.

And what about if the engine was re-cased at the factory? Is that also detrimental to a car's value?

It's a VERY slippery slope...

Marco you can call it what ever you want, but at the end of the day it is not the original engine that it left the factory with, and as a result it will affect the value. Sure there are scenerios that may not adversely affect the value as much, but it is still has an adverse affect. I have a close friend who has original 1967 Impala 427 4 speed with an original 16,000 miles on the car and he has the actual receipt showing the original motor was replaced under warranty in 1968 by the dealer. He has owned this car for over 30 years and he knows he cannot get full resale value out of the car if he were to sell because of this. If I'm buying a car with an engine replacement anomaly, I don't expect to pay full value.

[ESully]

An all 'original' car is worth more. Lower mileage is worth more. As it came from the factory, not dealer installed is worth more. Everyone knows this.
I always find it funny when someone asks if it is OK to represent replacement as original.
Even replacing a fender from an accident lowers the value of a car, as does a repaint. A replacement engine case is a replacement, not original. An engine case is not a normal wear item like filters and spark plugs. Even the wear items are worth more, hence the desire for some to find the exact oil filter.
As we know, there are many restamps of engine and vin plates out there. We can find blank vin plates right here in the parts forum. Why? To make it seem like it is original so it is worth more. Call it what you want, but if not disclosed it is fraud, and even if disclosed it does not make it legal. An original Porsche part is worth more than aftermarket, but there is a reason that low mileage 'barn finds' are sought after, and command a higher price.

[steve shea]

I think Marco is just posing the question. And I agree with some of his points. I think the issue is the restamping. That is why I think a replacement case, documented by the factory, left unnumbered will fetch almost as much as the original. There is a paper trail, it is factory and by not restamping there is no intention to claim what it is not.