How much does non-matching engine devalue an early long hood?

[bford]

Hi. I'm new here. Thanks to all who have shared their wisdom thus far. I'm a long-time Porsche nut and am very familiar with the technical aspects of the early cars, but pricing them is still a mystery to me. I'm in the market -- so I need to understand the valuation rules. Two case studies:
1.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-...t_11244wt_1167

This 1973 S has been on ebay for months without selling. It looks to be in really nice condition. The only thing wrong with it that I can see is that its original 2.4L engine has been replaced with a 2.7, and the MFI removed in favor of Carbs. If this car had its original engine, it looks like it would sell easily for more than $100K. As it is, they haven't been able to move it for months at $73K.

2.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-...-/300880520558

Pretty nice condition 73 E with original motor swapped out for a 3.2 liter carrera engine. No one bid within $20K of the $55K asking price.

So, help me understand the rules of this capricious market -- how much does a non-matching engine hurt the value? 15%? 30%?

[72targa]

One way to look at it is to consider your plans for when you sell it.

You can see that the market favors the correct engine. Anything else sells as if it was a hot rod.

If you don't plan to sell or you like a hot rod, go for it and enjoy it!

Otherwise, go in with both eyes open.

[Frank Beck]

Hi. I'm new here. Thanks to all who have shared their wisdom thus far. I'm a long-time Porsche nut and am very familiar with the technical aspects of the early cars, but pricing them is still a mystery to me.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-...t_11244wt_1167

This 1973 S has been on ebay for months without selling. It looks to be in really nice condition. The only thing wrong with it that I can see is that its original 2.4L engine has been replaced with a 2.7, and the MFI removed in favor of Carbs. If this car had its original engine, it looks like it would sell easily for more than $100K. As it is, they haven't been able to move it for months at $73K.
So, help me understand the rules of this capricious market -- how much does a non-matching engine hurt the value? 15%? 30%?

You have to separate "wrong engine" from "non-matching engine number". I believe your '73 example above would be a minimum knock of $30-40k because it's missing the 2.4S MFI. But there are so many variables in these situations. I.E: What if you could purchase the matching engine case for say... $10k and the correct MFI for $10k. That would drastically change the picture.

Unfortunately I think you're going to get opinions based on personal situations rather than what ready, willing, and able buyers have to say about this. No one wants to admit that their car is worth $30k less because they had a different case used 30 years ago when no one cared.

[aarp798]

What if it is a period correct motor with all the right parts but not the original motor?

[frankmar]

Does having an upgraded gear box hurt value? For example, a 69s with the correct engine and a 71 gear box with LSD?

[Louie]

What if it is a period correct motor with all the right parts but not the original motor?

having watched values and chatted with many very smart guys (mostly fellas on this site) this is my conclusion:

It depends.

1) As stated above if the motor in the car is 100% period correct non-matching most will deduct a minimal amount if any at all. Period correct meaning a 1969 911 S with a 1969 911 S motor.
2) If the car is a number one concours condition car with non-matching..no one really cares. Finding near perfect examples is darn near impossible for any pre-73 911 S. Find one that you love...BUY IT.

Bottom line, the value equation is determined by the overall condition of the car. Remember, on the early cars there are other 'matching numbers' issues. Fenders, doors, lids, transmissions...etc etc. If ALL of that is correct and the transmission isn't numbers matching per COA not many will deduct much.

Remember, the cost to restore one of these little gems is the same if the numbers all match or not

[luke-44]

Another factor is the serial number. An engineless 300xx car recently sold on ebay. I'm sure it won't end up as a parts car.

[Zithlord]

5 years ago I sold my viper green 73S for 400.000NOK(66.000$) It had known history back to the original dealer in Germany and was in perfect shape, interior and exterior, sport seats rear embelisher etc. The engine was a correct 73s engine but not matching and had 2,7 Mahle piston/cylinders and a rebuilt 2.4 S pump calibrated to RS spec. 220 hp. It would at least have been 85,000$ if matching here i northern Europe.

John

[CidTito]

"it depends" I read that and sort of chuckled, because all in all it depends - and very true. Lets assume purchase money is the same ...keep reading...
Say you have identical two used cars... one with matching engine, and one without... Assuming the matching numbered cars that might have belonged to a famous film star and used in a race related film, or a different car belonging to a rock stars to gigs where lots of psychedelics dropped and the radical decision to paint colorful do-dads all over the car. If you wish to buy such a car, just be sure the person is well received.

which would you buy? and why? i would pick the film star car.... obviously because there are people in the world that collects that sort of thing and will pay top dollar for it.

Say you have two other cars one with matching engine and with that kind of engine had a history of engine failure vs one without a matching engine, that had not chance of potential engine failure...

which would you buy? and why? (you don't need to answer) In this case.. .I would pick the second one..but wait... IT DEPENDS!!!!!!!

The bottom line about the higher value in a matching engine/transmission comes down to this: - Several European countries have super strict COA which not allows them car registration and potential insurance coverage for modified cars. Even modifications with brakes, transmissions, suspension are issues for them. It makes the value lowered to the cost of selling the old parts/labor and replacing it with new.
(example)

Early with non matching engine =$40,000; cost of matching engine/labor = $10,000; credit non matching engine value/labor = $5000

Car value is $35,000. which you then subtract or add to the going rate of that car or intended value. Just be sure to include other cost (brakes, transmission, interior, whether or not you must have that S matched oil cooler)
numbers you will need.. cost of car ______________ cost of matching engine _________________ labor ____________________
value of car at time of completion of swap / repair _________________________ other costs. __________________

[Louie]

Of course the numbers matching conversation is out the window when it comes to high end hot rods....that niche doesn't seem to care.