So who designed it?

[50/50]

Interesting side bar article in the recent "Excellence" on the design of the 901. Gifted Industrial Designer or member of the lucky sperm club?

[StephenAcworth]

Interesting 'side bar' indeed: for sure some will see it as "sour grapes" by those who worked on the core design and then saw their work misattributed, but it often happens in team work and, I guess, being a family member didn't do any harm.

But I was particularly taken with the observation that: "the disrespectful, who say that he (Butzi) at the very most made the coffee for the crew, seems to be a popular consensus", particularly when coupled with the anecdote about throwing the clay on the floor...

For sure, this will stir up an interesting debate and we may yet see a re-writing of history post the 50th anniversary! I look forward to the ensuing (heated) discussions...

[67er911S]

The Story was also in a big german Magazin (Oldtimer Markt).

[Jay Laifman]

I don't know. In recent photos shown of the two early models, the one NOT attributed to Butzi sure seemed to have more of the final car on it than the Butzi one. I'll have to see where I saw those pictures.

[edmayo]

I found this very interesting also, but my take is that although you may be the head of a department doesn't mean that you did every drawing yourself. You can bet that Harley Earl didn't design every GM product for years, yet those designs are known as the Harley Earl era. I do wonder that if Butzi was as incompetent as this makes him out to be, how he ran his own successful design office for years later. Too bad these issues didn't come out while Butzi was still with us, would have loved to hear both sides. Now if he had virtually nothing to do with the final shape of the car then that would be a different matter.

[911T1971]

Infos about the "true" 911 designer have a long time circulated, but only recently media talk again about it.

If you read infos about Porsche, its clear that Erwin Komenda shaped many Porsche and the car's DNA.

One can wonder how much Butzi was "spoiled" because his father owned the company. I was always sceptical that Butzi designed the 901 or more precise, the 901 T8 prototype.
Fact is, Komenda was more an old school engineer and Butzi from a younger generation, called Designer or Stylist. Opposite to the Americans who had early on their own styling depts, back then the german car industry relied on engineers when designing cars. They did not yet had real car designer or styling depts. Until they early sixties, mostly italian firms (Pininfarina, Bertone, Ghia, Michellotti, Vignale, Touring etc,) designed -as consultants- the shape of german cars as well as most english ones, with a few exceptions. Porsche did it mostly in-house, but they too asked early on Bertone and Goertz to propose a 901 design.

I think history and factory publicity made Butzi a car designer, he was at the most a team member who worked on about two cars (904,901). Thats it. He had no prior knowledge in car design and just one year of design college at Ulm. He never finished the design school but was then transferred to the factory and 1966 named head of the studio... ahead of Komenda, who was there since 1931 !.

The 901 shape is based on the 356's shape which is based on the first mid-engined Porsche based on the VW Beetle...all cars designed by Erwin Komenda:
A GREAT site on Erwin Komenda, run by his children's: http://www.komenda.at:
"So the changes to the background of long-established structures and hierarchies effected the complexity of the history of the origins of the Porsche 911. The subject of the technical evolution of Porsche’s most successful model, which could truly fill a book of its own, inevitably produced an exciting psychological agenda among the differing characters of the engineers involved.
The final years of Komenda’s life were marked by conflicts with members of the Porsche family within the company over the development of the Porsche 904 and 911. To Komenda’s great pleasure the 911 was built corresponding closely with his design and he was delighted further when the Porsche 904 Carrera GTS Coupé, the first car with synthetic resin bodywork, realised his countless patent applications for synthetic resin structures. "

In his german only language "Forever 911" by Aichele, one gets a clear insight at to what extent Butzi learned from Komenda's team how to build and design a car. Most design ideas developed by Komenda's team got refined on the 901 and Aichele writes, Butzi's father was eager that his son got credits at designing a car.
Komenda was probably the guy who got the least credit but did the most work on the 901. In his team worked Heinrich Klie (he also did the Fuchs wheel) as well as Gerhard Schröder, another 356 development guy.

I think Ferdinand Piech was much more a complete car designer and engineer, helped working on the 901 engine with Metzger and later was responsable for all Porsche race cars including 911R etc. . There was a common internal family competition about the Piech and Porsche members and while Piech went on to be a true car guy, the Porsche's third generation dropped off of developing cars. One can say that Ferdinand Piech inherited his grandfather's great talent in all aspects...and, ironicially, its him and VW who today "own" the Porsche brand , and not vice versa.


Btw,
for me fascinating to know that the sources of Porsche have nothing to do with Germany.
This was a company founded, thought out, owned and run by Austrians.
When Ferry Porsche spoke german, one could hear his austrian accent (as Jochen Rindt and Niki Lauda).
The cultural DNA of his father Ferdinand Porsche lie in Bohemia/today Czech and the Austrian-Hungarian empire.
This pre-WW1 austrian/easteuropean cultural meltingpot gave us Arnold Schönberg (modern music), Adolf Loos/Josef Hoffmann (architecture), Gustaf Klimt (art), Sigmund Freud (psychoanalys), Erwin Komenda & Ferdinand Porsche (cars & tanks)..but also Hitler. The best and the worst.

[Flieger]

I have also heard about Butzi styling the 904. Was that also a Komenda design or did he do the engineering and Butzi the shape? If the latter, I'd say that alone qualifies Butzi as one of the best stylists ever.

[Bummler]

Infos about the "true" 911 designer have a long time circulated, but only recently media (Oldtimer market and Excellence) talk again about it.

If you read infos about Porsche, its clear that Erwin Komenda shaped many Porsche and the car's DNA.

One can wonder how much Butzi was "spoiled" because his father owned the company. I was always sceptical that Butzi designed the 901 or more precise, the 901 t8 prototype.
Fact is, Komenda was more an old school engineer and Butzi from a younger generation, called Designer or Stylist. Opposite to the Americans who had early on their own styling depts, back then the german car industry relied on engineers when designing cars. They did not yet had real car designer or styling depts. Until they early sixties, mostly italian firms (Pininfarina, Bertone, Ghia, Michellotti, Vignale, Touring etc,) designed -as consultants- the shape of german cars as well as most english ones, with a few exceptions (Mercedes. RR. Bentley etc.). Porsche did it mostly in-house, but they too asked early on Bertone and Götz to propose a 901 design.

I think history and factory publicity made Butzi a car designer, he was at the most a team member who worked on about two cars (904,901). Thats it. He had no prior knowledge in car design and just one year of design college at Ulm. He never finished the design school but was then transferred to the factory and 1966 named head of the studio... ahead of Komenda, who was there since 1931 !.

The 901 shape is based on the 356's shape which is based on the first mid-engined Porsche based on the VW Beetle...all cars designed by Erwin Komenda:
A GREAT site on Erwin Komenda, run by his children's: http://www.komenda.at:
"So the changes to the background of long-established structures and hierarchies effected the complexity of the history of the origins of the Porsche 911. The subject of the technical evolution of Porsche’s most successful model, which could truly fill a book of its own, inevitably produced an exciting psychological agenda among the differing characters of the engineers involved.
The final years of Komenda’s life were marked by conflicts with members of the Porsche family within the company over the development of the Porsche 904 and 911. To Komenda’s great pleasure the 911 was built corresponding closely with his design and he was delighted further when the Porsche 904 Carrera GTS Coupé, the first car with synthetic resin bodywork, realised his countless patent applications for synthetic resin structures. "

In his german only language "Forever 911" by Aichele, one gets a clear insight at to what extent Butzi learned from Komenda's team how to build and design a car. Most design ideas developed by Komenda's team got refined on the 901 and Aichele writes, Butzi's father was eager that his son got credits at designing a car.
Komenda was probably the guy who got the least credit but did the most work on the 901. In his team worked Heinrich Klie (he also did the Fuchs wheel) as well as Gerhard Schröder, another 356 development guy.

I think Ferdinand Piech was much more a complete car designer and engineer, helped working on the 901 engine with Metzger and later was responsable for all Porsche race cars including 911R etc. . There was a common internal family competition about the Piech and Porsche members and while Piech went on to be a true car guy, the Porsche's third generation dropped off of developing cars. One can say that Ferdinand Piech inherited his grandfather's great talent in all aspects...and, ironicially, its him and VW who today who "own" the Porsche brand , and not vice versa.


Btw,
for me fascinating to know that the sources of Porsche have nothing to do with Germany.
This was a company founded, thought out, owned and run by Austrians.
When Ferry Porsche spoke german, one could hear his austrian accent (as Jochen Rindt and Niki Lauda).
The cultural DNA of his father Ferdinand Porsche lie in Bohemia/today Czech and the Austrian-Hungarian empire.
This pre-WW1 austrian/easteuropean cultural meltingpot gave us Arnold Schönberg (modern music), Adolf Loos/Josef Hoffmann (architecture), Gustaf Klimt (art), Sigmund Freud (psychoanalys), Erwin Komenda & Ferdinand Porsche (cars & tanks)..but also Hitler. The best and the worst.

Very well said...

Most notably your remarks that the Porsche family were of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Most folks haven't a clue as to the history of the region, politics, and borders prior to WWI.

[LongRanger]

Regardless of who gets credit for designing the 911 --- that car didn't just come outta no where

The Harbingers were the Type 60K10 and Porsche Number One and the 356 --- and those all have somebody's ideas + fingerprints all over them . . . . and they're not Butzi's


Erwin Komenda had been 'styling' Porsche's cars from the very beginning

What ever the 911 is . . . . has as much to do w/ Komenda as anyone


Forget the citations and company proclamations . . . .


Look at the cars

[911T1971]

I have also heard about Butzi styling the 904. Was that also a Komenda design or did he do the engineering and Butzi the shape? If the latter, I'd say that alone qualifies Butzi as one of the best stylists ever.

If its the former (Komenda), he was even better.
At least, it was Komenda who held the 904's patent for molding the resin shape.

As explained, factory credit go to Butzi but it was probably a "modified" info.
As much as the info of origin's of the VW Beetle was modified, since (jewish born) Josef Ganz's Volkswagen http://www.josef-ganz.com and http://www.ganz-volkswagen.org/history/index.htm and the Czech designed Tatra V570 by Hans Ledwinka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Ledwinka served as the car's concept.

"Both Hitler and Porsche were influenced by the Tatras. Hitler was a keen automotive enthusiast, and had ridden in Tatras during political tours of Czechoslovakia. He had also dined numerous times with Hans Ledwinka. After one of these dinners Hitler remarked to Porsche, "This is the car for my roads". ..The book "Car Wars" quotes Hitler as saying it was "the kind of car I want for my highways". In any case, of Ledwinka, Porsche admitted "Well, sometimes I looked over his shoulder and sometimes he looked over mine" while designing the Volkswagen. There is no doubt that the Beetle bore a striking resemblance to earlier Tatra. Tatra launched a lawsuit, but this was stopped when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia. At the same time, Tatra was forced to stop producing the T97. The matter was re-opened after World War II and in 1961 Volkswagen paid Ringhoffer-Tatra 3,000,000 Deutsche Marks in an out of court settlement."