What do You Look For . . .

[LongRanger]

. . . when looking at an Early 911?

I've been buying my own cars since I was old enough to pay for them. Been skinned exactly twice --- but only really ever bought one turd. I like un-restored cars so . . . the things I look for are kinda 'off'

Back in 1990, when I was looking for a 356, I was on the fence about buying what looked to be a decent-but-beat Roadster . . .

. . . until I saw something that I haven't seen before or since --- on any car . . .

Date-coded hub-caps --- all four of 'em

When I thought about what those sorry-looking, beat + banged-up old dog-bowls had been through --- over three decades, by that time . . . only to end up on the same nasty car that they'd left the Faktory on? . . . I bought the car on the spot. Turned-out to be a pretty amazing + excellent car, too. And I sold it looking just as beat as the day I bought it, too

And I shoulda never sold it . . .

Anyway. I'm sure that everyone has their own little 'TELLs' for finding a pearl, so? . . .


. . . sticking to Early 911s, please . . . .




What're yours?

[Haasman]

Rick- Good topic.

I have always said "It pays to get your knee dirty" That is, get down low, look underneath, all around.

I try, not matter how attracted I may be to a particular car, to first take it in. All around, gather its "energy". How is it been taken care of ... then I start looking for specifics.

-I will do a quick walk around looking at the wheels (original? chromed ...) scratched etc. Tires matching? Correct sizing, unevenly worn?

-Regardless of how nice a car may look, they all tell a story. Its just up to us to see the signs and then figure the vehicle's history. I often call it automotive archeology.

-I'll open the door almost first and take in my impression- Look at the seats, their wear, height, original etc. I'll glance at the odometer but they are often reset, changed, turned-over etc. Not looking for details, instead looking for what jumps out at me.

-Pop the engine cover, again just looking for what's been done to the car. Stock? Modified, improved, well cared for etc ..... still looking for stories.

-I will take a knew and look under first for oil leaks, then for OEM muffler/heat exchangers and then to the engine bottom for damage and leaks. Often then I will check the oil tank, its wiring, protection/lack of protection.

-It is often then that I will look at the rubber bushing inside the torsion bar cover. Is it asymmetrical (bushing hasn't been replaced recently). OEM suspension or ....

-Open the hood and immediately pull back the car[et looking for paint changes, body work, battery acid spills, original spare? Matching tire, strut braces, wiring work etc. Still, just looking for an impression of the car. Details afterwards such as VIN, VIN plate and matching numbers. I will try to open the smuggler's box lid for a quick peek.

-If I continue to like the car I will go back to the front and studying the underside looking for scrapes, damage, A-arm condition, shocks/struts, sway-bars.

-I take careful notice of the window moldings and rubber... are they original? Have they been changed? Is the rubber soft and pliable or is it hard as a rock and has a clear reluctances to return when pulled back?

-On the earlier 911s you can lift the rubber at the bottom of the door opening easily and peek to see if their is rust, original paint etc. On 356s that was very easy to do and that area speaks volumes.

I have kicked a car because "I didn't like it". Simple as that. Too many negative impressions.

Years ago at Zuffenhausen I was talking with an assembly manager. Nice guy who spoke english well. I asked him "If given the time, could he point out individual car differences, variations from one identical car to the next?" He answered unhesitatingly with a big smile "Oh, yes, of course. They are all different. Some days we make better cars than others." I've never forgotten that.

The other car advice that has always stayed with me: Every car is unique. There are no two cars alike. Each owner cares for it and drives their differently.

All cars talk, we've just need to know how to listen.

[steve shea]

Rust, matching numbers only, collision damage, drive test, compression maybe leakdown, cosmetics last. BTW my late '58 speedster does have dated Lemmerz hubcaps!

[Frank Beck]

All cars talk, we've just need to know how to listen.

I prefer the strong, silent types.

Sellers talk. Most of the time too much.

[mfitton]

Original stuff no matter the condition:
Date matched wheels, interior, radio & antenna, hood badge, worn shifter knob. What sealed the deal on my current '71 Targa was the original spare tire (Veith/Pirelli) and all date matched set (5) deep 6 Fuchs in original finish.

[beh911]

Interesting thread idea. A rainy afternoon kept me inside and allowed me to get some thoughts on paper.

What I look for when ADMIRING a car

Lots of nitpicks, but Dog is in the details, they say...

In this case, the car is usually on the ground (car show, concours field, random get together), so no opp to look at the underside.

I like to see one of the three compartments in the best condition possible. If it's not to my taste, was it done well?

Engine
No wire salad to aftermarket ignition systems
No cheap fasteners, electrical connectors, and hose clamps (I've seen so many improper clamps on fuel lines, scary)
No colored plug wires
Clean but unrestored fan and fan housing. I like the oxidized or simple oil rubbed look.
I don't mind faded plating

Interior/trunk
If not original spec, then done with taste
Does everything "match" in wear and tear? e.g. no cracked dash pad against brand new seats, or fresh carpet and vinyl/leather against fogged up, cloudy non working gauges (get the clock working or put in a blank out plate)
Older, original material (vinyl, dash paint, shift knob) with small signs of use beats new material, IMO. Newer material doesn't match the original stuff in many cases

Exterior
I've never been obsessed with paint or color, but does the exterior match the interior condition wise?
Windshield wipers. I like seeing the older style, metal wiper blades. The modern plastic Bosch stuff with the red snap tab and bulky frames just don't look nice on our cars.
An original windshield is cool to see

Everything is a work in progress though, and with the cost to maintain/restore on the rise, an owner that focuses on one area to "get it right" has a plan and is biting it off in chunks. I like that.


What I look for if I were BUYING a car

Very different perspective for me. In this order of importance.

0. I must see the car in person. Too much at stake to do it by pictures and promises. And I'm bringing my own mechanic, thanks
1. Body - rust, properly repaired collision damage, no squished front or rear ends. Gaps and panel alignment
2. Documentation - as complete a paper trail as possible. Big chunks of missing history can point to chapter(s) of ownership by not so detailed enthusiasts or flipping from dealer to dealer. Cars that have a non verifiable past are just not that interesting to me
3. Low number of owners - see #2
4. Original color - I'm not into color changed cars, regardless of the color. I guess paint condition falls into this category
5. Everything works - Easy example: lighting. It's fairly straight forward to get most lights in a 911 working properly. It's a basic sign of current owner's commitment to the car.
6. Missing bits - e.g. Front cooler plumbing in rear or cooler itself in front if it's an S; This stuff is getting harder and harder to find and pay for as the value$ of the cars go up.
7. Engine/drivetrain health - discussed ad nauseum in other threads
8. Drive test
9. Garage space... a problem for me at the moment, so let's move this in front of 0 above

[LongRanger]

I've bought a LOT of cars over the years, and I'm sure that I look for the same sorta things that other people do, go thru the same PPI-drill, etc . . .

. . . but when it came to sizing-up Porsches --- there was always something special to pick-up on

I bought my 911 long-distance --- didn't so much as sit in it 'till months after it was mine. But, I was pretty-pretty sure that it was a 'good' car before I got that far --- the PO was a straight-shooter, the Story was good, the car looked good in pictures, and the Mechanic was thrilled --- yadda-yadda-yadda . . . but, still . . .

. . . it wasn't until a year-and-a-half later that I saw something that confirmed what all my PPI-ing + hula-dancing had already revealed


My car's original (?) trunk-drains were still in place


Granted, the rest of her hull already looked pretty solid, but, I'm telling you --- like those 'dated' hub-caps that I found on my Roadster . . . I had never noticed these on any other Old 911. And I'd seen some pretty-pretty nice cars. I know that a lot of cars get there undersides seriously tended to --- scraped/repaired/re-schutzed/etc-etc-etc . . . but nobody seems to take the time to re-fit these Little Devils

Short Version = I look for these

[Darren65]

On a restored car, the correct rubber floors grommets under the centre tunnel....a small thing but imo seeing these missing or covered with stone guard or paint is just plain wrong...

[LongRanger]

Didn't check this 'till WAY after I'd bought The Nasty Car --- and there was strut brace in the way, anyway . . . but, by the time I got around to peeking in here . . . it didn't matter anymore

But --- Next Time I go looking for an Early 911? . . . I'll be sure to check the 'smuggler's box'



Even John Esposito told me --- after he saw this . . .

. . . 'don't ever touch that' . . .

[Barwaut]

What so special about that ........ smugglers box?