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Thread: Solving the Mystery of my Kardex (warning - way too long)

  1. #1

    Solving the Mystery of my Kardex (warning - way too long)

    FAIR WARNING: The following post is way too long. If you’re the kind of Porsche geek like I am, the type of person who checks the dates on their Fuchs every time the buy another 911, you’ll probably enjoy this. The rest of you should move along in an orderly fashion.

    Some of you might remember me purchasing my first longhood that was advertised right here on the registry – my 1969 911S Soft Window Targa.

    For everyone else, here’s a reminder.

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    When I acquired the car, I also acquired a mystery. And for the last year I’ve been researching that mystery.

    Prior to my purchase, the seller disclosed that the car’s engine and transmission did not match the car's COA. Both were correct for a 1969 911S but neither were numbers matching for this car. The seller expressed his surprise as the car was remarkably original and well-preserved but, after getting the Kardex, it was what it was. The engine and transmission didn't match.

    I bought the car anyway. I figured if you’re going to have a non-matching car, this was as good as it was going to get. This was a rare car and I wanted it. And while the engine and transmission weren't an exact match, the numbers were really, really close:

    On the Kardex:
    Engine: 6390414
    Tranny: 7191481

    In the car:
    Engine: 6390437
    Tranny: 7191506

    As you can see, the engine is off by only 23 numbers and the transmission by 25.

    During my conversations with the seller, he confided to me that it was his personal opinion that the car actually did have the matching motor and tranny and that there was an error on the Kardex. His opinion was based on common sense and the fact that a well-respected Porsche shop (Canepa) inspected the car and were of the opinion that the transmission had never been out of the car.

    So that’s where it started – My little game of “What are the chances?”

    What are the chances that…
    1. The transmission could have been replaced to such a standard that a well-respected Porsche shop couldn't see any signs, and
    2. Both the replacement engine and transmission would be within 25 numbers of the originals?


    I didn't do the math but it was certainly an interesting question - interesting enough for me to spend the next year investigating, at least.

    Upon delivery of the car, I had it inspected again by another well-respected Porsche mechanic. On a lark, I asked him a question, “You think that transmission has ever been out of that car”? His answer came quickly. “Naw, that’s just as she came brand new. I can always tell”. The score’s now 2 to 0 I think to myself. Interesting.

    When I bought the car, I was told that it had a single U.S. owner from California for the last 40+ years but that it had been originally delivered, and briefly owned, by another individual in Germany. The Kardex, which the seller was able to obtain before the sale, confirmed this.

    I began my research by tracking down the original U.S. owner. All I had was his name and the assumption that he was at least 60+ years old. From Google, I was able to find a single individual with the same name living in the approximate geographic area and, in the local newspaper, I found a story about that man opening a new coffee shop near Santa Cruz in 2010. The story gave a little bit of his history and also his age: 70 years old.

    By coincidence, I had to fly to California to close the deal on my 1971 911E. I made a reservation that gave me an extra day and flew west. I closed the deal on the 911E, checked into a hotel for a sleepless night, and was at the coffee shop bright and early the next morning. When I arrived, there were two people working behind the counter – average age: 19 years old. Neither looked like my man. Feeling like a stalker, I approached the counter and ordered a coffee (which I don’t drink). While my coffee was being poured, I casually broached the subject, “Does Mr. So-and-so own this business?” The reply was of the “Who’s asking?” variety. I quickly explained who I was, why I had flown out from Texas, and that I was looking for an older gentleman who had previously owned an orange Porsche 911. The kid behind the counter smiled, but said that the man I was looking for had sold the business the previous year. Crestfallen, I asked if he might know where to find him. “Sure”, he answered pointing to the far corner of the room, “He’s sitting right over there”.

    Have you ever approached a stranger with a babbling story about a car you own and an outstretched hand holding a cell phone with a picture of that car? If you haven’t, you should. Great fun as it turns out. What followed was more than two hours of making a new friend and learning a lot about the history of my (our) car.

    That day I learned that the PO was a private pilot and that he kept the car in his hangar only using it for pleasure. That explained the sub-100k miles. He also told me that he had purchased the car from a local Porsche dealer in early 1970. That was certainly interesting as it meant the car was only in Germany for a very short time. He also told me that the car had never given him any real problems, that it was his pride and joy, and that he could state with 100% certainty that it had never had the engine or transmission replaced while he owned it. Again, very interesting. The timeline that was developing meant that any engine or transmission replacement happened before the original U.S. owner bought the car – and likely when it was less than a year old.

    So, if you’re keeping score…

    What are the chances that…
    1. The transmission could have been replaced to such a standard that TWO well-respected Porsche shops couldn't see any signs, and
    2. Both the replacement engine and transmission would be within 25 numbers of the originals, and
    3. This car needed not just a replacement engine, but also a replacement transmission, within its first year of ownership?


    Upon returning home, I pulled out the original Kardex and looked more closely. Here’s what I saw:

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    What I had forgotten, or maybe hadn’t realized, was that my Kardex showed evidence of a minor repair to my car in 1969. That brought my list of questions to 4:

    What are the chances that…
    1. The transmission could have been replaced to such a standard that TWO well-respected Porsche shops couldn't see any signs, and
    2. Both the replacement engine and transmission would be within 25 numbers of the originals, and
    3. This car needed not just a replacement engine, but also a replacement transmission, within its first year of ownership, and
    4. The engine and transmission replacement, on a car that was obviously still under warranty, had gone unrecorded on the Kardex while a much smaller repair was recorded?

    By this time I’d started kicking around a theory I’d originally discussed with the seller when I bought the car. The theory being that the engine and transmission in my car were indeed factory original and that someone had made a transcription error when it came to my Kardex. After all, we’re talking a 25-number difference on the transmission and even less on the motor. Doesn't it seem likely that both engines and transmissions were on the factory floor at the same time? Is it too much of a stretch to think that a factory employee keeping the Kardex records might have made a simple error and transposed my engine and transmission numbers with the numbers meant for another car? Of course, if my theory was correct, that meant that somewhere out there existed a 1969 Porsche 911S with a Kardex showing my engine and transmission numbers for a car powered by the engine and transmission listed on my car’s Kardex. The search continued.

    As I’d previously exhausted my online search opportunities on all the numbers involved, I decided my best bet was to see if a Kardex existed that listed the engine and transmission in my car installed on another chassis. That meant I needed help. I have a couple Kardex contacts but nobody seemed willing, or perhaps able, to help me. Then I saw a post here on the registry by forum member kouwenhoven offering Kardex assistance. We exchanged emails and he said he’d see what he could do. Just a few days later and there’s news – a Kardex does exist that shows my engine and tranny numbers belonging to another car. For a small fee (I would have paid anything) it would be mine. And so it is.

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    Last edited by LiveFromNY; 06-20-2014 at 02:54 PM.

  2. #2
    I immediately noticed a couple things. First of all, the dates show that both this car and my car were indeed on the factory floor at roughly the same time period. And then I notice the delivery information – the car was sold and delivered to a customer in Gueret, France at roughly the same time that my car was sold and delivered to the original owner in Hohr-Grenzhausen, Germany.

    Suddenly, my list of questions was at 5:

    What are the chances that…
    1. The transmission could have been replaced to such a standard that TWO well-respected Porsche shops couldn't see any signs, and
    2. Both the replacement engine and transmission would be within 25 numbers of the originals, and
    3. This car needed not just a replacement engine, but also a replacement transmission, within its first year of ownership, and
    4. The engine and transmission replacement, on a car that was obviously still under warranty, had gone unrecorded on the Kardex while a much smaller repair was recorded, and
    5. Assuming my Kardex is correct, and my car did indeed have its engine and tranny replaced early in its life, it somehow ended up with the motor and tranny from a car that was delivered to a customer in another country only a year earlier?


    But wait, there’s more. Look closely at the both Kardex’s and you’ll notice one last detail. My car, if you remember, is a Targa painted in the rather hard-to-confuse 6809 Blood Orange. And the other car? The car that was supposedly delivered to France with the engine and transmission now residing in my car? Of course, it’s a Targa. The color? 6809 Blood Orange.

    So my final query is this. What’s more likely?

    That in my car…
    1. The transmission could have been replaced to such a standard that TWO well-respected Porsche shops couldn't see any signs, and
    2. Both the replacement engine and transmission would be within 25 numbers of the originals, and
    3. This car needed not just a replacement engine, but also a replacement transmission, within its first year of ownership, and
    4. The engine and transmission replacement, on a car that was obviously still under warranty, had gone unrecorded on the Kardex while a much smaller repair was recorded, and
    5. Assuming my Kardex is correct, and my car did indeed have its engine and tranny replaced early in its life, it somehow ended up with the motor and tranny from a car that was delivered to a customer in another country only a year earlier, and
    6. The car supposedly delivered in France with the engine and transmission that are now in my car was also a very distinctive Targa in Blood Orange?


    Or is it perhaps more likely that some overworked factotum at the Porsche factory made a simple transcription error when looking at two identical cars on the factory floor?

    You be the judge.

    Oh, and the search continues.
    Last edited by LiveFromNY; 03-13-2014 at 06:38 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member StephenAcworth's Avatar
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    Fascinating story and great detective work: thanks for sharing and I look forward to updates... My thoughts go to the simple transcription error as the most plausible explanation...
    1966 911 Coupe - Slate Grey - 304598 - still in restoration!

    Member #1616

  4. #4
    Senior Member
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    I tend believe you may be right on this. Great investigation.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by varunan123 View Post
    So, let me ask you the hardest question if the engine and transmission had been changed very early on and the car lived 99% of its life with this engine and transmission, is it non-matching ?
    Yes. matching is matching. If it's not as built by the factory, it's not numbers matching.

    Quote Originally Posted by varunan123 View Post
    Even a harder question, if you found the engine and transmission on the kardex , would you replace what's currently there and as part of the deal you would have to give up what's there to get what's on the kardex?
    Absent some new revelations, I think it's highly unlikely that the motor and tranny in my car are not original. But even if I discover they aren't, I don't think I'd change a thing. The car might be worth a bit more if I did, although how much more is questionable. Judging from my unsolicited offers, the value of this car is more closely tied to it being perhaps the only tangerine LWB SWT 911S ever built than it is to a motor and tranny 25 digits off what the Kardex says.

    I'm currently looking for the other car and I'll tell you what I might do. If I find it, I MIGHT be interested in buying it if only for a laugh. I'd then be the proud owner of matching non-matching 911's!

  6. #6
    Early S Reg #1395 LongRanger's Avatar
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    Hey, JP . . .

    Wow! Talk about digging for information. Great detective work --- and hats-off to your sources

    Regarding the switcheroo --- I could only guess. I do recall reading/hearing that all new engines were run-in on a dyno + their output measured against a standard before being installed in a car. Any motors that failed to meet spec were taken off/torn-down/sent back/re-built --- ones that 'exceeded' were 'green-tagged' for special customers. After that --- every car was road-tested. Perhaps these cars were side-by-side in the garage when some tweaking was getting done --- to one or the other . . . after the Kardex information was generated? The discrepancy that you've found may have to do w/ the timing of the assignment/installation of the engine vs the creation of the document


    What's especially striking --- for me . . . is that two such very similar cars were built close together

    What I also find very interesting about your two Kardexes is . . .



    . . . you may've identified another Orange 'S' SWT

    VIN = 119310113



    Again --- excellent investigating. Makes an already-super-special/interesting car . . . even more so

    .........

    We Can Be Heroes

  7. #7
    I personally don't necessarily value them more or less either way. I buy them because I love them and any value is theoretical anyway because I'll never sell them. But I do love to chase the details and the history. The end of my value discussions.

  8. #8
    Early S Reg #1395 LongRanger's Avatar
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    Some More Clues . . .

    From looking at the two documents, the cars have different key/lock combinations

    Might try identifying/verifying the ones in yours . . .



    Also --- if yours has its original spare or not . . . cars had different tire brands fitted

    HtH

    .........

    We Can Be Heroes

  9. #9
    Early S Reg #1395 LongRanger's Avatar
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    One More Thing . . .

    . . . just noticed that there are no 'Prod Nrs' showing --- on either of your Kardexes

    Why is that?

    .........

    We Can Be Heroes

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LongRanger View Post
    . . . just noticed that there are no 'Prod Nrs' showing --- on either of your Kardexes

    Why is that?
    Not sure that's anything surprising. I've seen many of them like that.

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