Ultimate ST thread

[_gonbau]

I would say that M494 was a transcription error, although I have found it in the document that accompanies the new S/T and also in a previous article by someone from Porsche. If I remember correctly, M494 was Turbolook for the cars of later years, so in my opinion, M494 doesn't have much relevance.
+I thought so, now I don't remember where that information came from or if I'm mixing it up, but at the time, I couldn't find anything regarding 494 for these ciches

[HughH]

Matt
i have never heard of that option and cant see it on the Fahrzeug-Auftrag sheets that I have

However there is a Z code on the order sheet for 230 0495: Z-Antrag Nr 827

My understanding is that all the details for what was contained in the Z-Antrag Nrs, KD-Rech Nrs, Moto.Frisiert nrs, etc that were stored in the old customer competition shop at the factory were destroyed sometime in the late 70's or 80's and all of the information lost. They were supposed to detail the type of tuning of competition engines including parts and processes used like honing and polishing parts, standard competition enhancements to both engines and the rest of the cars as well as specific competition parts lists for "packages" for factory installed customer competition cars

230 0550 has a Z-Antrag Nr 839 on its Fahrzeug-Auftrag so they appear to be specific to a car. However, from what I understand, it is likely that ALL of the special items for each of those cars would have been detailed on the Z-Antrag file note and likely NOT be a special M number

I dont have the specific Z number for any other of the 21 cars BUT I do have data that suggests there was one for 495, 538, and 550, but no similar notations for any of the other ones. 538 was the Keyser car used in the Targa Florio so also a "rally car" so MAYBE that had something to do with "rally options"?

Baudett
your post raised too many issues for me to address at this time of night here so i will look at them and see what I can reply to

[matteo68]

Hi Baudett

If that’s the case (and I don’t disagree with you because I Googled M494 and found the same totally different reference), do we think that all the rally mods for the ‘72 MY 911 S with M491 option (I think that has to be the correct factory description for the 21) were selected from a Sports Department list, much like the kits from 1970-‘71?

On a separate note, this factory press release to the dealers in December 1971 provides some useful insight into how the factory was promoting the car for the 1972 season:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nswua...3edpwtv05&dl=0

Matt

[HughH]

Matt
Thanks the English part will help answer Baudett's questions about what was in M471 (first page) and save me finding my copy.

[matteo68]

Matt
i have never heard of that option and cant see it on the Fahrzeug-Auftrag sheets that I have

However there is a Z code on the order sheet for 230 0495: Z-Antrag Nr 827

My understanding is that all the details for what was contained in the Z-Antrag Nrs, KD-Rech Nrs, Moto.Frisiert nrs, etc that were stored in the old customer competition shop at the factory were destroyed sometime in the late 70's or 80's and all of the information lost. They were supposed to detail the type of tuning of competition engines including parts and processes used like honing and polishing parts, standard competition enhancements to both engines and the rest of the cars as well as specific competition parts lists for "packages" for factory installed customer competition cars

230 0550 has a Z-Antrag Nr 839 on its Fahrzeug-Auftrag so they appear to be specific to a car. However, from what I understand, it is likely that ALL of the special items for each of those cars would have been detailed on the Z-Antrag file note and likely NOT be a special M number

I dont have the specific Z number for any other of the 21 cars BUT I do have data that suggests there was one for 495, 538, and 550, but no similar notations for any of the other ones. 538 was the Keyser car used in the Targa Florio so also a "rally car" so MAYBE that had something to do with "rally options"?

Baudett
your post raised too many issues for me to address at this time of night here so i will look at them and see what I can reply to

Hi Hugh
Yes I can see those Z-Anfrag (Z -Special Request - like Sonderwunsch?) numbers on my copies of those FZGs too. I will see if I can get my contact to look through the FZGs for the other 18 to see if any of those also show Z-Anfrag numbers as well, not that they will help us very much!…

Matt

[Nimba]

If this is a 100% factory S/T, does that mean that the factory S/Ts were later sent to the sports department to finish equipping the necessary items? It's evident that it lacks the electrical cut-off, but the hole has been made (the two small ones and one large one), so it's clear that the installation was going to be done. Would this installation not be listed on the vehicle's construction sheet, for example, or would it be listed? I understand that it would be since you can see that some metalwork has been done there. Therefore, the factory made the S/Ts but didn't fully equip them even though they were "new" and coming out of the factory... Is this correct?

Yes, that´s very possible that the sports department finished the car with all details.
From my understanding, the -72 small series of 21+ identical cars were made right from the beginning on the build sheet in the body shop.
There´s metalwork on the body you can only do when the body/shell is being built up and not like prior ST:s that most likely got an "body in white"
from Karmann and they started to modify it in the racing department.
An example is the covered fuel hole that goes through the front frame. On 2.5 factory ST/SR:s it´s spot welded and that´s only possible before the frame is put
together. Another example is the small brackets holding the oil breather bottle in the engine compartment. It´s also spot welded from two sides, and it makes no sense
doing that when all other panels are there or when the engine is there and the body is painted.

BTW, some great posts by HughH

[matteo68]

Yes, that´s very possible that the sports department finished the car with all details.
From my understanding, the -72 small series of 21+ identical cars were made right from the beginning on the build sheet in the body shop.
There´s metalwork on the body you can only do when the body/shell is being built up and not like prior ST:s that most likely got an "body in white"
from Karmann and they started to modify it in the racing department.
An example is the covered fuel hole that goes through the front frame. On 2.5 factory ST/SR:s it´s spot welded and that´s only possible before the frame is put
together. Another example is the small brackets holding the oil breather bottle in the engine compartment. It´s also spot welded from two sides, and it makes no sense
doing that when all other panels are there or when the engine is there and the body is painted.

BTW, some great posts by HughH

Do you have any clear images of the breather bottle retaining brackets at all?

Also it is not entirely clear whether the factory spot welded the fuel flap shut (if this is what you are referring to) on all the 21 M491 S’s as it was present on at least three (0934, 0955 and 0983 - see below)


0934



0955


0983

Matt

[Yellow491]

Do you have any clear images of the breather bottle retaining brackets at all?

Also it is not entirely clear whether the factory spot welded the fuel flap shut (if this is what you are referring to) on all the 21 M491 S’s as it was present on at least three (0934, 0955 and 0983 - see below)


0934



0955


0983

Matt

Referring to the inner wing where the fuel filler pipe would have gone to on a standard fuel tank,rsr also.

[Leirbag]

0983

Oh, that's the picture I found on the internet a few month ago ; )

Here is a picture of 0955 at Le Mans 1972 :




Thank you Hugh, Matteo for your findings and knowledge, that's really interesting to read and to think about.

[HughH]

Yes, that´s very possible that the sports department finished the car with all details.
From my understanding, the -72 small series of 21+ identical cars were made right from the beginning on the build sheet in the body shop.
There´s metalwork on the body you can only do when the body/shell is being built up and not like prior ST:s that most likely got an "body in white"
from Karmann and they started to modify it in the racing department.
An example is the covered fuel hole that goes through the front frame. On 2.5 factory ST/SR:s it´s spot welded and that´s only possible before the frame is put
together. Another example is the small brackets holding the oil breather bottle in the engine compartment. It´s also spot welded from two sides, and it makes no sense
doing that when all other panels are there or when the engine is there and the body is painted.

BTW, some great posts by HughH

My understanding i that all of the 21 cars in 1972 were built completely from scratch in the customer race department (unlike in previous years and possibly for the 1972 factory "ST's" where they started life on the normal production line) This even extended to the vin stamping of the 21 cars which was done on a totally separate machine to the production line vins). this is another unique feature of these 21 cars