New SWB Taillights and Turn Signals from Porsche Classic

[Unobtanium-inc]

I'm not a parts manufacturer or restorer.

Nor am I. I think you would have to be a little nuts to try and repro anything given the high bar people will hold you to when trying to recreate complex parts that were originally made 50+ years ago. In fact, I cringe every time I get an email from one of the repro parts houses like Stoddard, NLA, or SMD because if they make a repro that's even halfway decent the value of my used stuff goes down. Just think about 16" pre-A wheels, or A glass reflectors, or luggage racks, all are worth a lot less now that repro's have hit the market. And it doesn't matter to most of the buying public if a repro is right or not, the restoration shops will slap on whatever they can get fast and quick, unless pushed by the car owner to source NOS or OEM.
In terms of the Porsche Classic stuff I suspect they shoot for 95% accuracy, because that's about what we are seeing with the most recent stuff. Trying for 100% is probably possible but I would think it would suck most of the profit out of the endeavor. I've seen several repro manufacturers over the years who have strived for 100% and sometimes gotten it, only to realize they aren't making any money and they move onto other endeavors. While the middle of the road manufacturers are still around, so that should tell you something.

---Adam

[swcarroll]

The color on the new ones kinda' looks like the faded 50+ year old ones I have on my '65. Just a thought. John

+1

Engineered patina from PC? Brilliant.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Adam

As a person, formerly, "in the business" and still dabbling, and actually making repro parts, I respectfully disagree with your "rule of thumb". I can only speak for myself. I strive to make the best possible part and try and meet or exceed the quality of the original part. I don't think it is a good idea to speak for a industry that you are not part of and have no skin in the game. I don't think my standards are much different than others "in the business" Eric Linden, among others,come to mind.

Regards

Jim
PS: A shout out to Joris Koning

Jim,
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm not advocating for mediocrity in parts, I applaud anyone who can make something as good or better than the original. I was trying to explain the economics behind why many don't get past about 90-95% accurate. I was talking to a well known Porsche restorer recently who is closing his shop imminently, after over 40 years in the business, he told me that the last 10% of a restoration eats up half the profit for a shop. He was telling me about lots of guys he knows who used to do full restorations but now just focus on one thing, like motor building, or interiors, etc. You don't see Victor Miles doing full restorations anymore, for example.
I think making complex vintage parts like turn signals is probably like this for someone like Porsche Classic, who can ramp up production, get economies of scale and the like but in order to make it stay profitable they have to stop at 90% accuracy. Going that extra 10% would eat up the profit, and Porsche isn't going to do it if there isn't enough profit. Think of companies who have entered Porsche World in the last 10-15 years, who made exceptional products, but faded away, companies like Veloce for rubber, or Orange Bar Products. Top notch stuff, but getting to perfection probably cost them in the long run. Also, people are cheap, you yourself told me about people in the bay area who would sell to your customers garbage parts, but they were $5 cheaper, and some people will always chase the dollar, over the quality.
So the companies that produce the average parts are the ones who stay profitable, and therefore survive. So I'm not saying we should all race to the middle, but trying to explain why so many do, when making parts.

---Adam

[62S-R-S]

For sake of argument, playing devil's advocate.. assuming the deep orange is what normally rates as preferred, one test would be if pros or cons even out on the two..

Medium amber (imo) gives a relaxed, less ultra-serious, less 'intense' outlook. Deep amber is attractive with certain shade cars, possibly less so with others. There may be a plus to lighter, if you find dark aspects of deep orange on the 'stodgy' side. Otoh, there's a richness and quality to it, that the lesser shade doesn't quite reach.

Guessing this may be the classic choice..

[Jim Breazeale]

Jim,
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm not advocating for mediocrity in parts, I applaud anyone who can make something as good or better than the original. I was trying to explain the economics behind why many don't get past about 90-95% accurate. I was talking to a well known Porsche restorer recently who is closing his shop imminently, after over 40 years in the business, he told me that the last 10% of a restoration eats up half the profit for a shop. He was telling me about lots of guys he knows who used to do full restorations but now just focus on one thing, like motor building, or interiors, etc. You don't see Victor Miles doing full restorations anymore, for example.
I think making complex vintage parts like turn signals is probably like this for someone like Porsche Classic, who can ramp up production, get economies of scale and the like but in order to make it stay profitable they have to stop at 90% accuracy. Going that extra 10% would eat up the profit, and Porsche isn't going to do it if there isn't enough profit. Think of companies who have entered Porsche World in the last 10-15 years, who made exceptional products, but faded away, companies like Veloce for rubber, or Orange Bar Products. Top notch stuff, but getting to perfection probably cost them in the long run. Also, people are cheap, you yourself told me about people in the bay area who would sell to your customers garbage parts, but they were $5 cheaper, and some people will always chase the dollar, over the quality.
So the companies that produce the average parts are the ones who stay profitable, and therefore survive. So I'm not saying we should all race to the middle, but trying to explain why so many do, when making parts.

---Adam

Adam

Thank you for your thoughtful explanation. There will always be people that will sacrifice quality for price. On the contrary, there are people (many participants on this forum) that recognize the value in quality and are willing to pay for it. Striving for mediocrity doesn't work for me.

Regards

Jim

[Unobtanium-inc]

Adam

Thank you for your thoughtful explanation. There will always be people that will sacrifice quality for price. On the contrary, there are people (many participants on this forum) that recognize the value in quality and are willing to pay for it. Striving for mediocrity doesn't work for me.

Regards

Jim

Like I said I applaud anyone who strives to make the best product possible, we all benefit from their efforts. But just so we're clear, comparing making short small runs of repro parts to an undertaking like Porsche Classic is doing isn't a fair comparison. I would assume that you and many of the people reproducing parts in small batches are not doing it for a livelihood, but for the pursuit of it. I would assume lots of retired guys who see a void and they try to fill it. A man in his garage can make a call to reduce profit in the hopes of a perfect product, but a company with shareholders and a production line cannot. We should be thankful that the Factory is still supporting our cars, because for many years they refused to look back, especially the 356's.
Like I said, I don't condone making a mediocre part, I just want people to understand why we end up with them. Because that's always the first question people ask, "Why make it, if you don't make it perfect?" This is why.

---Adam

[jaudette3]

As someone who restores original parts, my perspective is a little different, but it ends up in about the same place. It’s very time consuming to restore parts to a decent level. As any restorer of the cars knows, doing the little things right can really drain the clock, especially when there’s a complication. It’s no surprise to me that I have no real competition in my niche. Because of the time involved there is no real money in it for a true business. I’m just an old guy with enthusiasm for the marque and lots of time on my hands and my little craft keeps me busy.

Moving forward it will require other enthusiasts to keep things at their current level, whether we’re dealing with quality reproductions such as Eric makes or decent restorations such as I do. If things are done just for $$$, then quarterly results will produce a kind of acceptable but mediocre product. Kind of an inevitable result of capitalism.

Cheers,
John

[LiveFromNY]

Quite frankly, I think we're all giving Porsche Classic too much credit - and an easy out - with the cost vs profitability argument. I mean, I get it. I do some manufacturing myself for businesses I own so I'm familiar with the challenges and costs. But let's not get it twisted. It wouldn't have cost Porsche a single additional penny to get the color right. Or to get the fonts right. There is a LOT they could have done to make these parts closer to the originals without incurring significant (or any) costs. And while I also appreciate that they still make parts and support our cars, I think we just need to deal with a simple fact: they don't care as much as we do. It is what it is.

[LiveFromNY]

Medium amber (imo) gives a relaxed, less ultra-serious, less 'intense' outlook. Deep amber is attractive with certain shade cars, possibly less so with others. There may be a plus to lighter, if you find dark aspects of deep orange on the 'stodgy' side. Otoh, there's a richness and quality to it, that the lesser shade doesn't quite reach.

Sounds like you could condense this to a Haiku with a little effort!

[Soterik]

I think PC went at this with the intent of 100% accuracy.

If you read through the "Originale 6" article you will see this in their own words:

"with all the lenses, the utmost importance was placed on 100 per cent original authenticity, particularly when it came down to markings, stamps, engravings, or the Y-shaped chiselings for the reversing light the achieve the required light refraction, just like the original. Simply put, there was a standard that had to be met, namely that the the customer should not be able to tell the difference between the reproduced part and a part produced at the time"

That's their own words.... and that's just one example. Please read the article in it's entirety. They also denigrate the aftermarket (guys like Marek, me, Joris, and to an extent John) over and over and then drone about their authenticity.

By the way, imho these aren't that difficult. The fancy word for the housing material they describe is "Zamak"... but that's just "pot metal", a zinc alloy. It's cheap. Tooling is expensive... I've done a lot of Zamak permanent dies, but that's the most expensive part. You have to get it right.. going back and redoing the tooling to get it right, but nowadays as they do it's a 3D scan and and reverse engineering you get really close right out of the box. Then it's the reflectors and the lens.

I think the most difficult part is probably the reflector in the lens on the rear units. The original reflectors are better than the new reproduction imho, much more sparkle to them. The next best are these new reproductions, and then third is the lenses currently available in the aftermarket.

The best overall is NOS. Second best is probably John Audette (with the best lens out there) and his quality work on the housings, and then these. What we all (and John) needs is a very nice lens to work from. There are reasonably plentiful core units still available. Perhaps the aftermarket will look again at doing a lens with all the correct markings for "under the table" sale.

I only strive for 100%, and I do fall short. My goal is to keep bringing more products to market, and if possible to re-order parts I've sold out of "if" the market will support another run, and the manufacturer is willing to agree to my demands for quality (many won't). I'm entirely self financed and the operation has to support itself. In that regard I will be here for as long as I want to do this... financing has never been an issue.

There is room in the marketplace for the best products. It doesn't cost any more (not really) to make a better product... You wouldn't think that Porsche and Bosch would have an issue in doing a 100% (essentially) product.

I do like them though for a certain section of the market. I'll keep my set and use them on a 912 "driver" that I'm doing. I will however send this set to JP so that he can do a comparison on the NOS units he has (mine are somewhere....).

Off the soapbox (for the moment)

E