Ultimate ST thread

[HughH]

Baudett
I saw that "T" and it is unfortunate we dont have the full document to see what is in the chopped off bits
You have done a good job in superimposing it on the blank Strahle one but the fact remains that we cant see what is written in the part that is missing.

It appears (and from the Barth letter as well) that they were ordering a competition car but not a factory built ST, which in 1972 were 911S 2.5 M491 cars.

The documentation supplied when it has been for sale a couple of times has clearly stated that it is / was a 911S 2.4 M471 although not in those words (indeed the same spec as 9112301139 the light yellow camera car Michael Keyser also purchased from Max Moritz. For that car it is recorded that MM installed the wider ST flares but did not change anything else. It already had lightweight seats, door panels carpet etc. That car was collected in April 1972) I think both were probably near enough identical.

I dont know for sure why the T is there or what preceded it. However I do know that it was a period (ex works) 2.4S group 4 customer car but not a M491 2.5ST.

What the T may refer to is this comment in one of the sale documents.

"This car – with VIN-Nr 911 230 1081 (we will refer to it as #1081) – was delivered by the factory as a Gulf Orange Porsche 911S with “T” race-specification to Max Moritz on 27 March 1973 for delivery to fur trader and racer Claus Utz from Reutlingen.

The “T” race spec was comprised of light-weight body, thin glass, alu trunk lid, sport seats, 5 speed gearbox, front spoiler and anti-roll bars to which Claus Utz then added in his purchase order an 80 liter fuel tank, special speedometer (up to 300km), special rev counter (up to 10,000 rpm) and a limited slip differential. The engine number was 6321607 and gearbox nr was 326765. Claus Utz paid for the car with some cash and his old 911S plus a Volkswagen".That is also close to what Barth says in his letter. He says:
"ST means T version, so simply with an S motor, which at the time was specially built for sports use" after heading the letter Porsche 911ST

Where they wrote T in - and I cant tell for certain without seeing what else is there - I THINK they may have written 911S, Typ"T"

All of the sales records show it as an S including that Max Moritz invoice (I have a slightly better copy) and this is in some documentation that I have - note on the last line the 911S typ "T" reference

Finally I dont understand why both Barth and the German documents I have say the "year of production" is 1971 when it is clear that it cant have been completed until March 1972 or maybe a bit earlier. Maybe that was the date when the order sheet was sent to the production line or maybe there is another "Germany specific" reason for saying the year of production (note not when it was completed) was 1971.


Also you asked about the weight of the car. The following document which gives some more technical details makes reference to a homologation weight of 960kg. I dont know how accurate it is as it is not on factory letterhead

[davep]

If we look at the Fahrzeug-Auftrag for several vehicles we can observe that the Planung Termin Datum will precede the completion date by a month or so. I understand that this is when the car order was entered into the system and planning for production can begin. So it is entirely possible for 1081 to have a 1971 planning date and a March production date, followed by an invoice date and then a delivery date.
In the above document is "produktionsjahre 1971" supposed to mean calendar year or model year or is this an error? Obviously a 1972 Model year car and almost certainly completed in 1972. We are in agreement here Hugh.
Ausleiferung (delivery) from Porsche to Hahn 1.3.1972; this is the invoice date and you can discount the first of the month.
Ausleiferung from Hahn to Max Moritz 27.3.1972; this is the likely date of delivery to the dealer from the distributor.

[_gonbau]

In forensic science, I was taught that when performing an autopsy, you cannot fill in the gender on the report until you confirm "their lower parts." And that's how I did it. I understand all of this, to some extent, as a forensic science where you have to gather pieces over time. Since there are parts that haven't been shown to us (for some reason), sometimes we have to play CSI.
From my perspective, I don't agree with your point of view on what was written on the form. Huhgg (I think for the first time), and I won't mention my arguments again (I think they are already quite clear and sound repetitive). I've written them down, along with the discrepancies in dates and the KFZ number close to other vehicles dated in January. Regarding the price at which the vehicle was sold, it seems "low" for a light vehicle, etc. I suppose time will solve my disagreements, Obviously, giving credit to the arguments that have always been associated with the vehicle.
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[davep]

Baudett, I understand your thinking, and also that of Hugh. This is a situation for forensic science in a way. We are trying to reconstruct what was done some 55 years ago, and many of the documents have flaws. I have several thousand documents (1000 356 Kardex, 1000 911 & 912 Kardex, 1200 CoA, etc) and obtain a significant # more each month. I enter all these into a database and so review each one individually. To put it mildly, there are a lot of errors and omissions. Forget the vaunted German precision and attention to detail.
Beginning in 1967 the factory did start to seriously supply the 911 for sports purposes. Things like special series transmissions appeared beginning with standard serial series #'s but special type #'s, then transitioned to special series serial #'s and a few with 1968 series special transmissions. In 1968 offerings exploded with the TR based on a 911T but with an S engine, the L-SP based on a 911L but with a special sport engine, and the 911R. But in 1970 the ST and such were based on the 911S which was offered in base form as a real stripper with minimal trim for the lowest weight. To get back to the trim level of a 1969 911S you needed to order the M470 package for a 911S; the M470 was a little different for each of 911T, 911E and 911S. So you have to understand that the factory thinking changed from basing the sport model on the lighter weight 911T and adding the S engine TO using the 911S and stripping it down to a very light weight for homologation.

[davep]

So let us compare the order document to the delivery document:
The order document does show a sales model key 911534 and the delivery document shows 9115340; so why the extra 0 at the end? That is something I have never seen before. The 911534 is consistent with a 911S as is the VIN.
The order document does show the sale of a Porsche and the VW Porsche is crossed out.
The order document does show Type ?1T but this is incomplete and inconsistent with the delivery of a 911S.
The order document does show coupé where the Targa and Roadster (914) are crossed out. This is consistent with the VIN delivered.
The order document does show 61 Gulf Orange and 12 black leatherette with cordsamt. This is consistent with the delivery document.
The order document does show options M220 M404 M414 M473 & larger tank. The M404, M414 and M473 are not consistent with the 911S since they are standard equipment, and so are not on the delivery document.
It would almost appear the original intent was to order a 911T with options to bring it to S trim, but somehow the model key was chosen for an S and that was delivered. No mention of engine type is on the order document.

[_gonbau]

"re 911 (sports version)Dear all,
Porsche's sports department has the aforementioned design vehicle available for test drives in order to provide interested parties with optimal technical-sports advice. Anyone seriously interested in this vehicle can contact the responsible employees, Mr. Staudenmater and Mr. Barth, at the Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen plant for such a test drive and sports advice (Tel. 0711-8203 330 or 319).
We recommend that the respective specialized salesperson actively participate in these contacts and, if possible, accompany the potential customer on their visit to Stuttgart. It must be expressly noted that the sports department cannot provide any information regarding the delivery dates of these vehicles.
The basic equipment of the 911 S sports version can be found in the general brochure. Subject to approval by F.I.A., the vehicle can be additionally prepared for Wattbeverb as follows:

1. 2.2 litersThe engine is approximately 2.3 liters bored, with special pistons and cylinders, Carrara 6 rocker arms, a special Sprite valve, special exhaust, and a special clutch, delivering approximately 230 horsepower.

As with previous Westbevecbeautes, all wheel pasta can be replaced, and different transmission ratios are possible for each gear and .com, as well as different internal transmission ratios, and a special differential.
"
In this text, they are referring to the "911 S-T" model, which seems to be a sports version of the Porsche 911.
Regarding the statement about having a "design" vehicle available for test drives, it likely means that the factory has a specially prepared vehicle for potential buyers to experience and "sample" what they would be paying for. In any case, it is referring to the "911 S-T" (sports version).
¿The circular mentions modifications for lightweight on the chassis.??
As for the unclear delivery dates of "those vehicles," Porsche might be referring to the vehicles that the prospective buyers will test and purchase ("S-T" version). The uncertainty in delivery dates could be due to production schedules or other factors.
When mentioning the equipment for these sports version cars, it's likely that they are using a brochure, possibly the one often seen for sport-purpose vehicles.??
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on the other hand, 013 was built on a T chassis as far as I understand, VIN numbering etc match an S, how do you know that a T chassis was used to make the prototype vehicle?

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/2272...ne-no-6320023/

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[HughH]

That is good work Leirbag, although I have a few extra / different details

There has been a lot of (deliberate) confusion around those "Shell" liveried cars
Yes 9110301127 was the 1970 Tdf car and is now in the UK

030 0949 was a factory ST originally S-R 2970 which has had a very confused history after it left factory ownership. It was driven by Larousse but, I believe, really owned by Meznarie directly after the factory, initially with his "trade plates" 228WWL91 and later "registered" as 4833 QC 91 in the same Shell livery as the 1970 TDF car. I understand (from Meznarie before he died) that IT was the 1971 TDF car BUT they had to use the identity of another car that he owned, 9110101605, with the 4833 QC 91 plates "due to “French customs issues” (ie would have had to pay import duty) but the entry papers clearly show it as 0949". The real 0949 was later raced by Barth at various events in 1971 and by Larousse with its own plates 3182 QK 91 instead of Meznaries' 4833 QC 91 plates in 1972.
It was later sold by Meznarie under those plates as shown here and retained those plates when Phillipe Burlet owned it

it has been well documented that these days there are two cars that claim the identity of 0949, both with the 1971 Shell livery, and that has been discussed a lot on this board over time

9110101605 was also owned by Meznarie. IT was road registered 16/06/1970 : 4833 QC 91.

According to Meznarie 911 010 1605 is his T chassis that Louis had prepared for competition and that he rented it here and there.
Here it is at the Le Mans 4 hour in 1972 with the 4833 QC 91 plates and Sylvain Garant the pilot



It was originally built as a 2.3 but then modified by Meznarie in 2.6L ( 70.4 x 87 ), 287 ps at 8000 rpm

This is the entry papers that "show it as the 1971 TDF car" although in reality the car used was 0949


it was also possibly the #38 car for Jean-Claude Boucher/Dider Jaunet/Jacques Guerin at the 1973 Le Mans 4 hour

I have no firm views on the car(s) in the Shell colors and wearing the 4833 QC 91 plates in various rallies in France in 1971 and later (including the famous photo at the 1971 Cevennes with the front left corner ripped off) was - 0949 in disguise or this one with Shell livery or something else completely. Unfortunately I never got a chance to discuss this issue with Meznarie before he passed as it was not top of mind at the time



by the way where did you get the information that the targa and Le Mans car was 911 030 1003? I dont have any record of that vin being a ST. I know 0998 was a Swiss delivered 2.3 but not 1003 although there were a lot of ST's in the 20 or so vins around that number

[928cs]

... thanks to the license plate as well as a smartphone application accessible to all, I can see the chassis number linked to the license plate.

How is it possible?

[928cs]

There are a few websites that provide this kind of information, the siv-auto website for example.

Regarding the phono app, a search for "license plate" on the AppStore or the Google Play Store is enough to find a dozen applications allowing this service.

Scarry, but i don't see the VIN with this website.

[_gonbau]

I thought the same thing, if you search in the store you find the application that gives you the wine and more information. Very interesting, the name as they have indicated: inmatriculation du vehicle.
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Having said that... does anyone have another apk in relation to a specific country that provides the data of the vehicles registered in it?
For Spain searching in the ANDROID store:Info vehiculo
For France ANDROID store:inmatriculation du vehicle